FOSSDLE PieFed[Answered] Does Lemmy need a fork or a rewrite due to its maintainers views?
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I read an old thread documenting the opinions of Lemmy maintainers an the .ml instance. The issue of funding a project with people openly expressing opinions many find distasteful and it being the biggest reddit alternative on the fediverse came up, so here's a topic to discuss it.
What should we do? What are the options?
Answer: No fork necessary, there are Piefed and Mbin.
I have the mindset of taking any idea that works for yourself and use it for your purposes. Like we should be stealing ideas from big tech and foss-ing them. Id assume big tech is worse than this maintainer
But what would the fork look like? Finding the maintainer contribution and rewriting them?
We already have Piefed and Mbin.
OK, thanks. I guess I'll be migrating to those and setting up a donation - if they don't use Github sponsors.
Also the piefed main dev is nice normal human being with humanist views of the world. He has a rational discourse toolkit box with links about how to handle extremism, disinformation and stuff like that.
Piefed would be much better aligned with your views.
Sure, but isn't he the same guy writing the backend to specifically exclude or editorialize the posts by the member who does thorns?
Both main devs of Mbin support at least Librepay.
https://piefed.social/donate
Here's PieFed's "Donate" page: https://piefed.europe.pub/donate
Me being reminded I have my mbin account abandoned: 👀
Maybe join piefed and if you want block ml.
Once every couple months someone makes a post saying "I just found out the Lemmy devs are TANKIES! Won't someone do something about it?" No one has expressed real interest in forking Lemmy, though plenty of people have expressed interest in someone else forking Lemmy for them.
Most of the dev interest seems to be on Piefed right now. For some reason Mbin hasn't seemed to really take off, I don't see people talking about it as much.
Mbin is just kinda weird. I guess there aren't too many people who are after a Reddit-like that also care too much about microblogging. Or maybe they do but the microblogging part of Mbin is just an inferior experience to Bluesky or Mastodon anyway? Or maybe people just dislike having to call shitposts in meme communities "articles" in "magazines"?
That is super clunky and I do hate it.
Is the code good? Are you prepared to make any potential fork viable and useful in ways that Lemmy isn't so people have a tangible, non-ideological reason to choose your software over Lemmy? Do you have a long term goal for funding and maintaining a fork?
That said, Piefed is already a thing, and it federates with Lemmy. It's where I'm commenting from right now. It has a better on boarding process and does a better job surfacing things I care about.
I write opensource software, I donate to opensource, I use opensource. I however can't do everything. That is why the question is "we" not "hey @gerowen@piefed.social why don't you make a fork, you lazy bastard". Code is not the only way to contribute to a project and I'm willing to donate to lemmy alternatives while it is still possible for me.
Piefed might be where I start donating. Gotta check it out first.
I just wish .ml was more honest with their rules and policies, so people can actually make an informed decision, before they sign up there.
It's the Communist tradition to force it on unsuspecting people because they don't want anything to do with it otherwise.
You have piefed if you really want to. I personally am fine with developers having views I disagree with, expecting everyone to have the same views as me is unrealistic; if they tried to influence how you host your instance based on their views that's something I'd disagree, but they do not do so on Lemmy.
We all have limits. For some communicating with those who tolerate genocide is alright, for others using their software is fine, and for even others they will happily give money to them à la "it's not me, so why should I care?". But if the number of people who don't care is not enough to sustain that software development, it will have an effect. We can wait to see if we get that far or do something about it.
I'll check out Piefed and Mbin as that seems to be most common answer here.
I don't think Lemmy dev even have the opinion you stated above...
The Lemmy platform is just a tool to manage and delivery content. And I think it's important to differentiate the software from those who manages the software. I can see there's is a tacit connection and influence there. But unless they start baking inherently bias features into the software and skewing it, I don't think it's a big problem.
Also, because it's an inherently federated platform, if people don't like the opinions of those who run a specific instance, they can (with the inclination and determination) spin up their own instance and manage that the way they see fit. And that has happened quite a few times over the last couple of years.
So no, I don't think it requires a fork really. Not unless the people managing the main branch lose interest and the software starts to wither on the vine, or they start corrupting it somehow. But that's just my opinion.
I disagree. You are right that through federation and open source you can create your instance if another instance is a nazi bar. But now you open your new bar. Should you buy chairs from the nazis for your bar? Is it not a problem if the nazis are the only ones producing chairs?
That is to me the analogy with lemmy. Yes I don't have to be on .ml. But I don't want to sit on the transphobic, genocide denier built chair either.
Technology and society don't exist in separate spheres and we should always consider them together.
So go with piefed if you can. I haven't had any complaints since I switched :)
In this nazi analogy it would be less of buying chairs and more the nazis giving away chairs for free that come with blueprints so if the nazis started installing spikes in their chairs people can just build their own from the blueprints, they just choose not to because it's a lot of work. Which is fine if you don't want those chairs, but a lot of people are fine with those chairs as long as the nazis don't start any camps.
I don't see a "we" in this, follow the free software way: Don't like it? Fork it yourself or don't use it.
It will become a problem for us if lemmy isn't funded, won't it?
Only if Lemmy was the only Reddit alternative. As so many people are saying though, it's not.
e.g. PieFed not only exists but it has surpassed Lemmy in most ways in terms of feature development. And it continues to add new features at an astonishing pace.
There is no hope for "Lemmy" reaching the mainstream in my mind, but with PieFed leading the way, and Mbin also exists (that sounds mean so I'll clarify: it has <1k users worldwide iirc), and yes a fork of Lemmy could be created if necessary, there is hope for the Threadiverse (federated threaded-based conversational platforms) overall.
Try out PieFed, even just the sign up wizard will leave you amazed. Donate to both its development and the operation costs of the instance that you choose (PieFed.social, PieFed.zip, several others to choose from).
No. If the project is interesting enough for people spending their time developing and using it there will always be running Lemmy instances. The need for funding over the amount people are willing to dedicate to a hobby project is the death of a project like this.
Then probably something else will be funded in the same amount. That will be either PieFed or mBin.
Move to PieFed
I'll check it out. Thanks.
What is the difference with Lemmy? What’s better and worse with Piefed?
PieFed is newer so maybe missing a couple features with some clients, but in general is much better managed and more actively developed. It has some features above Lemmy already too. It will win in the end IMO.
Here is ChatGPT's take on the differences:
PieFed
Lemmy
🛠️
Moderation & Safety Tools
PieFed
Lemmy
👤
User Experience & UI
PieFed
Lemmy
🔌
API & Ecosystem
PieFed
Lemmy
🚧
Maturity & Stability
PieFed
Lemmy
📌
Interoperability
Both PieFed and Lemmy speak the same ActivityPub-based “threadiverse” protocol, meaning:
There is Piefed, it's compatible with Lemmy instances and has a whole load of useful feature for both users and moderators.
Much quicker and responsive development (I've been able to get two small feature/improvement requests implemented within weeks of my initial issue post).
One of the Lemmy developers is also an admin on the notorious Lemmygrad instance.
Looks like I'll be checking that out.
It's great, a lot better than Lemmy.
The main weakness IMO is that Voyager doesn't support most of the cool features of Piefed (core interaction works great though). I have yet to try Interstellar. The mobile WebUI is pretty good, albeit in need of some polish and optimisations.
I think most of us using 3rd party apps are missing out on a lot of great piefed features that are available on the default UI. I personally use Thunder. I tried Interstellar but unfortunately don’t really like the UI (at least at its current state). Blorp is also supposed to be built with piefed in mind but it lacks even more UI customization (doesn’t even have compact view mode). I think we can just be patient that our apps will catch up eventually. Piefed is being developed so fast that I can understand 3rd party app devs have a hard time keeping up
Source: I’m Blorp dev
Ah I haven’t checked in a while. Thanks for correcting me! I need to try using Blorp more often.
I added it on the more recent side. Thanks for trying Blorp!
I'd like to clarify here that Voyager can do with PieFed everything it can do with Lemmy. But PieFed has a lot more features than Lemmy does, and of those extra features, Voyager supports none. But that only means that the PieFed experience on Voyager is precisely the same as the Lemmy experience on Voyager!
You can use mbin if you want out of the Lemmy codebase, it's a separate codebase that does the same thing.
Not only the same thing, some features are even better compared to Lemmy.
This has been rethreaded so many times I feel like it deserves an entry in knowyourmeme. Opinions are like asses, everyone has one, everyone things someone else's stink, in the end, what matters is you can support Lemmy without actually supporting the developers (eg.: support your local instance).
Reactionary forks don't have a great record of success (or even getting off the ground).
Piefed already exists (although I contest the use of "reactionary" here)
It's also not a fork
PieFed is not even a fork, btw, it's a completely different software
Yes I know, but I was just speaking generally.
I think that Richard Stallman is a despicable person. Never stopped me from using and supporting the development of Emacs and GNU tools for the past 25+ years.
If you want to, go ahead.
But Lemmy isn't a small project. Can you really bear the maintenance burden alone?
And Piefed & Mbin already exist, just recommend them over Lemmy then? They are also supposed to be easier to maintain, so fork them if you want to fork something.
They are insane. But their views don't seem to ever make it into the code, so I don't mind for now.
It's actually pretty interesting.
I recall one incident in lemmy's infancy where one of the devs tried to ban the use of certain words, but then the community (rightfully) pushed back and said "no, that's stupid."
Usually it is as this point things turn to shit in opensource/community/fediverse/cooperative. The devs are not the product.
Who will go in holidays with 100% of the team for every product one use ?
What does this even mean? Who creates something doesn't matter at all? If that's the case, then using Microshaft products doesn't matter, does it? They can provide the infra and software for bombing Gaza but who cares right? They make software that is worth using so we should keep giving them money. No problem.
Please re again my previous message. I didn’t mention any single thing of your list.
Sorry if this has been triggering for you, have a nice Christmas.
I don't see the point in boycotting something that's free and doesn't make money off of selling my data. I suppose you aren't obligated to donate to it, but that was already true.
I suppose OTOH, I'm not pro-tankie, but I at least prefer tankies to the fascists and authoritarian capitalists (or whatever you want to call them) that run mainstream media. Harm reduction is the name of the game IMO, not finding a platform with a perfect set of political values aligning with yours (at least for me, I haven't run into many leftists who are also committed to nonviolence due to pragmatic reasons). The russia/ukraine stuff in that thread you link does look nasty, on the other other hand
I really don't like this dangerous trend of condemning actions of people based on wether we agree with them or disagree with them.
Because this behavior is at the base for intolerance and strong polarization.
First of all, I want to judge your actions for what they are, not for what your political views are. So Lemmy is good and I like that full stop. There will be better alternatives (maybe already are) and I will judge them without agreeing with their creators political views.
Second, I prefer to discuss and interact with people who have different views and political ideas than me, because that's where I grow my ideas and enforce or dispute them. Enough of the echo chamber where the "algorithm" already places us in every social fucking media.
Kids, it's by enforcing and supporting even the ideas contrary to yours that you grow up. Yes this is annoying and can cause serious brain engagement, but yeah, that's how we progress.
Even fascists or communist ideas. Zionist or pro-Palestine, pro gender or anti woke, if we start judging peoples actions only for their ideas we become fascists.
I was also tought that what you do is more significant than what you say. Judge by actions, not words.
So I don't dislike technology because the guy behind it is a fascist or a communist.
Said so, if anybody thinks that can do a better Lemmy by forking it, go ahead and let me judged by the actions.
This is the “radical centrist” position, and it’s serves the fascist power structure.
None of the things you’re comparing to each other are equal or opposite. You’re functionally saying “I consider good and evil to be equal, I tolerate intolerance”.
I’m not sure if you stand behind your examples, because you didn’t really say anything.
For starters…if you wanted to address the topic you would have compared apples to apples ie fascists to tankies. You can’t casually imply fascists and communists are two ends of a spectrum and both have interesting points to make, that’s absurd: the former are evil, and the latter are dreamers. The rest of your examples are similar.
The topic here is “what level of tankie propaganda are we dealing with, and is it appropriate to allow them to control what we read”.
Maybe the fact I am not a native speaker affect how my words are understood.
Actually yes fascist and communist are two ends of the spectrum, I have no idea what tankies means, it seems to be some slang or jargon.
But no, why would using lemmy means people from Lemmy.ml controlling what we read? That's totally bonkers.
No, fascism and communism aren’t “opposites”…that’s the fascist framing…and that’s my point. It’s extreme centrism and “both sidesing” to claim they are. They’re only opposites if you preface your argument with good v evil…and you didn’t. Fascism is a dangerous system that’s arguably ever-present and destroys humanity….while communism is a highly ideological philosophy that’s never existed. Don’t be confused when highly socialist and authoritarian countries are labelled as communist…they’re no more communist than the DRC was a democracy or a republic.
Tankie is the word you’re looking for: authoritarian communism…and it’s important you use the proper word, because authoritarianism is antithetical to communism. If you didn’t know what the word meant…why did you even comment?
The topic was a conversation about whether or not certain Tankies have an outsized influence on Lemmy, and if that’s bad. The consensus seems to be that they can’t.
I don't believe politics is simple enough to allow opposites, but if there were such a thing, those two ideologies would be pretty close. Fascists are ideologically anti-communist and communists are always among the first they mass murder. Communists (along with anarchists) are consistently the foundation of anti-fascist action.
"Yes, and,"
This is where terminology plays tricks:
- A communist society is the ultimate goal of the ideology called 'communism'.
- You're absolutely correct that no country has a communist society; in fact, it's a contradiction, since a communist society is stateless by definition.
- The countries that are labelled 'communist' (by themselves and others) are states with a communist government in power. This strategy of vanguardism is strongly debated among communists: many would agree with you that it's a contradiction, while others consider it a necessary transitional phase in order to defend from capitalist counter-attack. If we assume that the vanguard government is not corrupt (and we shouldn't assume that without evidence!), then it's a government that aims to create the material conditions that would cause itself to wither away, piece by piece. Obviously none has succeeded in that goal, but it's not wrong to call those governments 'communist', in the same way a person who supports socialism is called a 'socialist' - it's about a school of thought, about ideology, rather than describing the current situation they govern over. And to characterize authoritarian communists as fascist is ignorant about how fascist systems develop - fascism works to kill socialism and liberalism with the backing of the owning-class. No matter how many similar characteristics one may try and find on the surface, the two concepts are foundationally incompatible and opposed, and will act very differently. It's fine to hate them both, but they are not related.
The “transitional phase” definitely isn’t communism, and I would argue the term was co-opted by people as a pretext to execute different ideologies…especially in the examples you’re using. The word communism is used as a weapon by too many. You can’t just say “The USSR was bad because of communism, end of story”, for example. It was never communist, and I would argue it eas never trying to get there.
It’s absolutely wrong to call those countries communist. Each example is different. When authoritarian states use labels…they’re generally meaningless. Is North Korea a republic? Was The Soviet Union?
You’re using all these fraught terms like “socialism” and “liberalism” incorrectly. You’d be far better off by defining your terms, rather than just throwing them around. I mean…you don’t really sound like you know what you’re talking about. The Nazis rose out of National Bolshevism, after all.
On one hand, I know you're right that socialist rhetoric is abused. It's vitally important to be alert to it, and fascists have a proven history of trying to exploit socialist sentiment, given their rise in response to a string of 1920s socialist uprisings in Europe.
On the other, I can't look at the decades-worth of writings and actions of the RSDLP and Bolsheviks and conclude they weren't honestly trying to build a vanguard party with the aim of building a communist society. I'm open to critique of whether or not Leninist theory has been shown to be right or wrong, but I struggle to see how Lenin could have been pretending to be a communist full-time for 20 years at extended self-sacrifice. An opportunist wouldn't have chosen a path with such little opportunity. The Bolsheviks were evidently a vanguardist party trying to eventually achieve communism - a 'communist party'.
I'm using them in a way consistent with political dictionaries.
Fascism is, openly, anti-liberal. This is not a contested fact, they say it openly. It's one of the few consistent parts of fascism, along with being anti-socialist ('socialist', in this context, meaning in support of social ownership of the means of production - a very standard and common definition in English dictionaries and encyclopedias alike).
Summary of nine dictionaries all with similar primary definitions of 'socialism'
You accuse me of using those terms incorrectly, so what would you consider a correct usage?
No, they didn't.
A cursory look at the Nazi Party's history clearly shows their utter disdain and scapegoating of Bolshevism as a grave evil. The Nazi Party founder (Anton Drexler) was an anti-Marxist. Drexler emphasised the only thing 'socialist' about the party was social welfare for those deemed Aryan. The Nazi Party considered nazbols to be a strand of Bolshevism and therefore part of a Jewish conspiracy.
I totally support what you said. If I don't support someone financially by using his or her product I don't see a big issue. And when reading through Lemmy comments for any given open source project there is at least one comment saying the mantainer said or did something or even a contributer is an asshole or has the wrong political view and therefore nobody should use the Programm.
As long as the maintainer try's to make something that more or less follows my views for a open and decentralized web I'm fine.
If I think about donating on the other hand I would check if the morals are on the same line
And you seems to be from a non US instance, it might be related to the fact you seems to be the only agreeing with me.
But yes, at the end the concept it the technology should not be judged by the political views of the creator.
I also agree with not supporting it finacially if that money goes where you don't like.
People from the US agree with you.
Lemmy is just overrun with irrationals who've never learned guilt by association*, *genetic fallacy*, and other *irrelevance fallacies are illogical & who've also never figured out that such irrationality is the root of many injustices.
They're small minded & contemptible.
Well, that's true of most internet. Luckly, internet Is not (yet) real life.
OK, let's say somebody who hates you to the core and wants to see you dead made software you found great. All they said was stuff like "I think your kind deserves to be shot", "your kind are subhuman", "they hung your kind and I see nothing wrong with that".
Would you use their software? Would you enjoy being part of the numbers that they use to validate getting money, maybe even power? Would you publicly promote their software? Would you get others to use it? Would you even donate to them? Would you get others to donate to them?
How does the Lemmy creators actually personally benefit from the fact I run my own Lemmy instance?
I do not donate to them, but how is the technology created be them evil if it fits my concept of decentralized web?
Do they get money because I run my instance o use another one not under their control? O doubt it
I am actually using their tech against themselves, so what?
This is some of the most pretentious, ostentatious posturing I've read on this topic.
You really think people can't see through this?
You don't see the irony in doing the "sophomoric debate club" thing while calling those that disagree with you "Kids".
"Dangerous trends", "base of intolerance" or the pompous drivel about "grow my ideas and enforce and dispute them" are almost comical in their tone.
The world doesn't work that way. This is a motherfucking internet forum.
Or is this a satire of American style polemics and I got played? 🤣
If it's satire, then good job!
I am not american and frankly find American style polemics quite hard to understand. Mind me I have quite a few american good friends, and I lived in the USA for a few years too, nothing against USA itself.
But yes Tolerance is at the base of civil life and that's true even with intolerant people.
I find generic phrases such as "tolerance is at the base of civil life" to be unconvincing, especially when parroted in such an aggressively self-aggrandizing manner. You might as well say something along the line of "An apple a day keeps the doctor way".
You either don't have much life experience (and lack intellectual curiosity) or you're just grandstanding online.
What if I told you you were debating with a 14 year old who's using AI to sound cool?
Ugh...
The main advantage of fediverse over, let's say X, is that you can change server if you find owner not trustworthy. So just do it, it's exactly why it was designed in this way, to let you do it easily.
But talking about funding... I might indeed reconsider doing this...
Lemmy works over ActivityPub, which is the thing that provides the federation, and what people has been accostumed to call Lemmy as a whole. But there is more software that works with AP. No need to create a copy, other software can do similar things (for example: mbin, piefed, mastodon, etc).
There is no "we" and you can start a fork/rewrite if you want to, good luck!
PieFed is essentially what OP means. It exists, it does everything Lemmy does, and a bit more. And it does it faster, both for the user and for server resources.
For what it's worth, that thread is openly biased with many of those examples being strawman quotes and misframing events, like a non-sequitur troll post ban being framed as "support for Ukraine". And frankly, some of those points are cm0002 themselves intentionally trolling, like dubiously reporting a political meme as "Propaganda".
Personally I think the main devs are terrible at forum moderation. I'm aware that they're chronically overworked, and that .ml is not intended to be a neutral or liberalist general-purpose instance, and I'm aware that it's very normal for moderators to be bad at moderating, and yet that doesn't detract from my belief that they're technically bad at moderating a forum. For example, simply writing "rule 1" as a ban reason allows people to misinterpret bans as we're seeing here. Automate that shit, prefill ban reasons with the rule list! Make clearer rules and FAQs describing how memes and talking points considered normal in the US are actually chauvinistic propaganda!
As for a fork or rewrite, like others have said, alternatives already exist, but I also don't think this is a case where maintainer opinions are harmful to the user or project (even if I disagree with some). They're devout anticapitalists, which makes their FOSS and anti-enshitification positions clear, I know it won't sell out in five years. They only have power over their own instance, which one is welcome to not join or block.
Just don't give money to the instance they own that is pro russian occupation and pro china human right abuses
No, I think they're doing a great job.
So far no one who's able and willing to do the work for a fork has done it so I assume the motivation is low. There's alternate pieces of software mentioned here that have their pros and cons.
PieFed and mBin exist. Both do everything Lemmy does, and a bit more. They use less resources as well. What reason would there be for forking Lemmy? The only reason Lemmy is the most popular one among these is that it was the first one. Since then, better things have surfaced.
How dare are you a communist😡😡😡 Accept freedom and democracy in your country 🦅🦅🦅
The thought-police strike again.
you can block the tankie instances on lemmy, and any community too, i blocked the triad, and politics,.world, and any individual account that are from those tankie instances.
Just a quick note that PieFed allows you to easily block all users from a given instance, like a personal defederation with no need for admin powers. Your way also works, but you'd have to block thousands of users individually, plus new ones that sign up later.
While in contrast the option that looks like it would work easily, the "instance block", in fact is strongly misleading - still allowing those users to vote on your content, reply to you, submit posts in other communities, DM you, triggering notifications, etc. Essentially it does not "block" the "instance" at all, only muting communities hosted on them.
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Does the term "freedom of opinion" have any meaning to you?
Did the OP say they can't have those opinions?