FOSSDLE PieFedDbzero has Defederated from Feddit.org following its Governance post about the later's "Zionist Bar Problem"
SalamenceDbzero Governance Vote Post https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/63525728
Ahoy mateys!
A few of our users have recently pointed out that a lot of the pro-Zionist accounts on the fediverse nowadays seem to come from the feddit.org instance.
But whatever the excuse happens to be, they need to do better imo. Israel is currently the most violent, fascist and genocidal nation state in the Middle East (if you exclude the US military bases there). And yet feddit.org seems to regard the Palestinians fighting against Israel’s ongoing illegal occupation of their land as the real terrorists. ....
More context
Our instance already voted to ban pro-Zionist accounts (see https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/60585441 for reference) and the rule that was implemented is here: Golden Rule #8.
As further context, you can find relevant comments and discussion in this post by a banned feddit admin in MoG (that fact they chose to post in MoG is in itself quite telling), and this post about their defederation from quokk.au over anti-semitism allegations has recently become active again. ...
Note 2: If you think feddit.org deserves a full instance ban instead, or have alternative suggestions, then please leave your comments below. If enough people think that’s the better option, then we’ll do that instead.
In the end the Post had around 70% of support by dbzer0 users, who in the comments also called for defederation.
Here is a Link to Dbzer0 instances tab https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/instances where if you go to blocked instances you can see fedddit.org is now defederated
i dont think feddit has made a post now, but when they do i will add it
Comments are disabled.
This thread even 18 hrs later:
I'm just wondering how long the mods or world admins let it go. Usually they kill things like this quickly unless it's something attacking ml
It has created some funny interactions, the best part is that it still has one more day left in the all/active tab
Thank you for recognizing statesia my ego gets a little wonky if it goes unnoticed
ok.
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That's the way they roll. They do be a bunch of weird cunts but it's their right.
What is a good alternative instance for me that is not supporting Zionism, but also not db0 as I feel some of the communities on feddit.org don't really have the Zionism problem?
You could use an instance that federates widely (such as lemmy.zip) if you want to be able to interact with as many communities as possible.
I will try that, thanks for the suggestion.
This will probably be unpopular but the leftist - liberal infighting is my least favorite part of the fediverse and why I usually end up having to give people a warning before telling them to get on the fediverse.
This drama is kind of the epitome of that
Leftist vs liberal infighting has been going on since the late 1700s.
Of course what you really have to ask yourself is, if they've been infighting since basically the beginning and if their ideals are diametrically opposed then is it even in fighting?
Liberals love to call it infighting because it allows them to take credit for all the progress that happened thanks to leftists. And yet they're always on the right-wing side of those "infights".
When the liberals were the leftists?
Nope.
Yes: crack open a history book.
Maybe you should actually read some of it next time. Read about Gracchus Babeuf and learn a bit.
Maybe read about the French revolutionary National Assembly & where political left came from?
Before Lemmy, I didn't know it was possible to go so left that you hated liberals.
Corporate media didn’t want you to be exposed to any ideas outside of the Overton window.
Sometimes the further left extremes I've heard hear are indistinguishable from conservative Q-Anon. I legitimately need to check users post histories to understand which extreme they are on
They are very clearly distinguishable, just not to you yet. Until recently, you’d only ever heard disagreements coming from your right, so you confuse disagreements coming from your left with them.
Liberalism in fact has more in common with fascism than socialism: they’re both capitalist ideologies. Previously.
If you can't tell the difference between "media companies serve the interests of their owners and managers" and Q-Anon, that might indicate a problem with you rather than with others.
Ain't much difference between MAGA and tankies.
Communists and fascists are diametric opposites. Communists seek to collectivize production and distribution to fulfill the needs of everyone. Fascists seek the preservation of private property and the extermination of labor organizers. Lazily equating the two and doing nothing to back it up is just "enlightened" centrism.
Ain't much difference between nazis and the people who stopped the nazis, apparently. /s
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The comment I replied to vs. this from QAnon page on Wikipedia.
Only difference is that your side is "right"
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lmao, you're the perfect centrist. By your standard, "the Holocaust happened" and "white genocide in South Africa happened" are both equally valid statements. Do you see how ridiculous it is to just group statements by superficial similarity and treat them as equivalent regardless of the substance of the claims or the evidence?
You are reducing both sides to an extreme and extracting a single quote from both of them - "corporate media is lying to you to protect politicians preying on children" . You understand that one side is right and the other isn't - where do you think the difference appears? Certainly not at the extreme surface level of a single quote you are picking.
All sides in WW2 were killing people, I literally can't tell the difference!
Liberalism is supportive of capitalism, leftism begins at anti-capitalism. What did you think the left was before Lemmy?
Liberalism was the original leftism: see the French revolutionary National Assembly.
It doesn't intrinsically have anything to do with capitalism.
In general, liberalism is neither left nor right.
It promotes individualism.
Historically, it progressed from humanism.
Not the political science definition.
General definitions & the historical development of liberalism are academic.
Some of the earliest liberal practices are found in the US Declaration of Independence, which predates the French revolution spreading the practice of liberal ideals throughout Europe.
The US declaration pretty much rehashes core tenets of liberal philosophy
- inherent equality of individuals
- universal individual rights & liberties
- consent of the governed (governments exist for the people who have a right to change & replace them, & authority is legitimate only when it protects those liberties).
Note how capitalism isn't mentioned anywhere: it's nonessential.
Capitalism predates & isn't liberalism.
Liberalism is moral & political philosophy, not an economic one.
The philosophy is a natural progression of humanist philosophies from the Renaissance through the Protestant Reformation & the Enlightenment that stress the importance of individuality, secular reasoning, & tolerance over dogma & subservience to unaccountable authority.
To address unaccountable authority based on dogma & traditions, English & French philosophers defined legitimate authority based on humanist morality pretty much as expressed in the US declaration.
They argued that political systems thrive better with limits & duties on authority & an adversarial system of institutional competition whether in separation of powers, adversarial law system with habeas corpus & right to jury trial, competitive elections, dialogue, or economic competition.
Liberalism arose as a bourgeois ideology to use against the feudalist systems, the equivalent in feudalism being the clergy and the church. The mode of production capitalism is based on individual ownership of capital, and claiming the labor-power sold by workers is equal in position to the capitalists buying the labor-power and selling commodoties.
Liberalism was left when feudalism was dominant. Putting it in its historical context, it helped overthrow feudalism. However, there is no "Absolute Idea" of Hegel, what was progressive at one point is still reactionary at a later point. In the era of capitalist decay, socialism is on the left, the progressive ideology.
I can't think of any "leftist organisations" that support Zionism ? Maybe you're confusing fascist with leftist ?
I mean "leftist organization" is a weird term and I would more speak of currents. And there is definitely the Antideutsche or Anti-Germans.
The German left, at least the loud one, is publically dividing between this topic. On demonstration you see a lot of people openly supporting Hamas, wearing the red triangle etc. For me it is only natural to fight this form of anti semitism. That makes you a "Zionist" on Lemmy, as there is often only "anti genocide and pro genocide" in online discussions. But the world is very complex and there is a large continuum between Islamic and Jewish ethno state philosophy.
Hemming and hawing over genocide is disgusting.
Seriously, imagine typing "there is often only 'anti genocide and pro genocide' in online discussions" and thinking "yes, I will post this and look like a very good and moral person". Yes, if you're not against genocide you're for genocide. Yes, if you think supporting the resistance to genocide is antisemitic, you are a genocidal zionist. This type of "nuanced" "anti-zionism" (liberal zionism) is also widespread on feddit.org.
By fucking german law at that. And they enforce it too. Never again, as defined by nihlists with no soul serving the plutocracy while the far right takes their country from them and fixes elections while they are busy surrendering their people to tech.
One of them was extremely offended in another thread when I replied to them with "I was just following orders".
What I think they meant was that people here only think about the genocide and thus declare the perpetrators evil (which they are) and the victims the good guys (hamas are not).
One side's atrocities don't justify the other side's. Excusing your own group's actions because they're the good guys is far right thinking.
In reality there's more factors to this than just the genocide, and both hamas and israel are the bad guys in their own way. One is just worse than the other, but that doesn't make the other good.
Correct.
You're wrong, Hamas are in fact "the good guys" in this conflict. The resistance to the genocidal settler state are good even if they don't measure up to whatever arbitrary standard of perfection you have in mind.
Bullshit framing designed to try to equate between the invading settler state (with overwhelming firepower) and the (often barely adult) native resistance just trying to survive and protect their homes.
"Hemming and hawing over genocide is disgusting."
- @seeking_perhaps@mander.xyz
Saying Hamas is antisemitic is sure fire sign of being a Zionist.
Palestinians are a semitic people.
If you want to saw that Hamas hates Jews, well, when your entire life has been being bombed by planes with stars of David on them, while jackbooted thugs with stars of David on their shoulder kick in your door to kidnap your family members in the night, and settlers with star of David necklaces show up and claim your home and land by divine right, I can start to see where you develop feelings toward the people who carry the same sign.
Maybe, just maybe, if Israel wanted the world to be a safer place for Jews they would stop associating a genocide with Judaisim as they are so fucking desperate to do.
You probably already know this, but Israel wants the world to be a more dangerous place for Jews to justify Israel's illegitimate existence and aggression. That's why they conducted terrorist attacks against Ethiopian Jews, to convince them that they needed to move to Israel as it's the only safe place for them... where they're then met by deep-rooted racism.
100%
Israel wants to be a Jewish ethnostate, but only the Jews they deem to be the "Good" ones
Antisemitic clearly means anti-Jewish. Sure it technically means all Semitic people, and as such a better word could have been used so long ago, but it's intended and in use meaning today is very clearly defined. Jewish people have been some of the biggest victims of Middle Eastern and European hate for thousands of years.
You're doing the #AllLivesMatter of religious hate.
Islamophobia is much more prevalent in the west than antijudaism. There is islamophobia on a systemic level. And lets not pretend that it's directed only at muslims but arabs in general. Crying "antisemitism!!" about an indigenous armed resistance movement is the #alllivesmatter of this conflict.
ask an anti german what they think of muslims in the middle east :) it'll be the most misanthropic thing you heard all day.
anti germans are disgusting zionists and need to be shunned from leftist places. they are pro-genocide and there is no nuance to it. they are not part of the left, just delusional cosplayers
Spoken like someone that condemned the ANC as terrorists in the 80's.
"Sure, apartheid is wrong, but the people suffering it and fighting it are the worst" <--- you.
It does not make you a Zionist on Lemmy. You are a Zionist in real life.
"Opposing Hamas makes you a Zionist", can you confirm that statement?
You said supporting Hamas is antisemitic. Why are you crawling back to the word Zionism now?
Me
You
Again you
Me
???
Yes, opposing the main resistance to zionism makes you a zionist. Glad we all understand each other.
Edit: not that you'll see this, I can see piefed.social dropping my replies to you because you have me (or maybe my instance) blocked.
What's wrong with the term "leftist organization?" Educate, agitate, organize is the common saying, organizing is the fundamental task of leftists.
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This is all nonsense and you are indeed a zionist. Thank you for making it clear to everyone.
Thank you again for clarifying which side of this choice you are on.
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Don't be discouraged. Personally I don't have the energy any more to endure the abuse of the mob (these "leftist" ignoramuses whose obsession with "Zionism" leads them to support literal fascism) but it's important that somebody makes the points you're making.
You should have been bullied more in school.
My favorite part is pointing out that most israelis are not white westerners, but from other middle eastern countries who were fleeing persecution in those countries and are more arab than western in terms of ethnicity and history.
But that doesn't fit the nice narrative that all Israelis are white colonlizer/invaders from europe or something. Literally never had it acknowledged once, just denied and told that it is zionist propaganda.
No. The majority of Israelis are Ashkenazi Jews from Europe. They are European settler-colonists on occupied land.
- <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israelis#Jews>
- <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashkenazi_Jews> - <https://www.nbcnews.com/sciencemain/most-ashkenazi-jews-are-genetically-europeans-surprising-study-finds-8c11358210> - <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zionism_as_settler_colonialism>
Edit to add: I took a peak at your modlog; it’s filled with fascist brainworms.
Agreed. A bunch of general purpose instances with slight variations on ideology that are pretty much identical.
I joined to talk about math and programming. It's a letdown that this Podunk platform seems to consist mostly of the weirdest, loudest people who saw the political compass meme and took it way too seriously.
We take politics so seriously that we don’t take the political compass meme the least bit seriously:
<https://en.prolewiki.org/wiki/Political_Compass>
yeah it sucks. it sucks balls.
i have to deal with it IRL. It lead to me quitting some things I used to love doing because I was so sick of psychos telling me if I am not a extremist leftist who is angry and outraged 24/7 I must be a fascist/zionist/pro-genocide/anti trans/bigot/blah blah blah.
you sound charming, I hope you stay away from those things for everyone else's sake
"I got kicked out of several places by people accusing me of being a bigot" is an incredible comment to make, lmao.
Yay anarchists! 👍
Boo zionists! 👎
Classical Lemmy.ml comment
Funny how you guys generalize ml users then get mad when people generalize feddit.org users
I thought .ml were disgusting authoritarian tankies, now also anarchists are tankies? Almost as if it was a left-punching slur all along :o
I meant the inability between distinguishing moderating hate speech and supporting genocide.
Lemmy.ml definitely has its problem with nuanced positions.
There is no nuance in settler colonialism and supermasist ideologies
Yes, we should be moderating hate speech and opposing genocide. The hate speech and genocide direct at the Palestinian people by the Israeli Settler Colony.
And all of that is 100% possible without having any conflicts with the existing rules. If you cant voice your opinion without direct hate speech that sounds pretty much like a you problem.
Which anti-zionists are saying what hate speech? The hate speech is principly coming from zionists who call Palestinians terrorists and call for their genocide.
Totally Agree
This really is a great thread for finding people to block!
Totally Agree
I thought this was meant as a compliment until I saw "@feddit.org", lmao.
Understandable, since 'classic' is more likely to be used for a compliment. If it were me, I would have used 'typical'.
Sorry, what was that? I can't hear you when you're all the way over in defederation.
Especially since the .ml-ers are mostly Putin bootlickers and authoritarian fans. I hope real anarchists can see that.
But you don't understand Putin is fighting NATO, he's a hero! Who cares about the dead Ukranians, they deserve it for not wanting to be conquered by imperialist Russia.
Fuck anarchists, tankies, Zionists, regressives and bigots in general.
Y'all just different shades of the same crazy.
Everyone is crazy, except your team, right?
Usually how that works. Personally what’s going on over there, fuck em both. All they want is violence. Let them have it. Problem solves itself eventually.
a predictable lemmy.ml user retort.
Relevant username? :)
Nice. Props to db0
I've noticed this too and have been following the conversation. However, I think self-isolation isn't the answer. Allowing r/The_Donald to go private didn't stop the far right.
What works is challenging these people, constantly. Mockery, abuse, whatever it takes. But building up echo-chambers, or allowing echo-chambers isn't the solution.
I mean, allowing echo chambers doesnt really seem avoidable on fedi tho? Like, only one side has to defederate to break two way communication, so if someone wants to avoid you, you cant really stop them, and the whole concept of moderation in a decentralized system relies on each instance being able to selectively view or block content from other instances based on the values of that instance. You cant really say "what works is challenging people" if the people you want to challenge have an "ignore" button for when you get too loud for their taste.
I mean it is. Look at .ml versus . world versus say.. hexbear.
Banning, defederation,anything to de-voice people: it's constantly being used to create local echo chambers. And it's not like we don't have a down vote button. We have a way to do "no" to content. But banning or defederation is saying "I don't think you should be able to form an opinion on this content". It's very different.
Maybe Im not saying this right: Im wasnt arguing for the virtues of echo chambers with that, Im saying, with how fedi is designed, there is no means to prevent someone that wants to make an echo chamber from doing so, so suggesting that one should not allow an echo chamber to exist is a fool's errand.
In a more general sense, it seems to me that, either you let people decide what kind of content to see, in which case many if not most will naturally create echo chambers simply because they dont want to see views too different from their own, or you have some means to force people to see stuff they dont want to, which requires some difficult-to-escape authority have power over their media feed and as such is incompatible with decentralized federation (and of course risks that authority pushing everyone into their echo chamber). Both of those things lead to serious issues in my view, so its a bit of a "pick your poison" situation when it comes to social media design.
Beyond that though, it does have to be acknowledged that there is simply more content, more messages and people wanting to spread their word, out there than any given person has the time or attention or mental capacity to process. That means that some system must exist that determines what fraction of it all you actually see (even if its just as simple as "the things most recently posted on a given platform when you looked at it"). I can see no way to do this that doesnt introduce biases.
ah gotcha. Now I understand.
I agree in principal but not in part. I do think its possible to set up echo chambers in the fediverse, and while its not impossible to break out of them, its definitely not convenient.
I agree entirely that its a design/ conceptual issue. I've long argued that the fediverse in its current format is very clearly a "1.0" conception.
its not really an echo chamber, lemmy unlike reddit is decentralised, so nothing is stopping a dbzero user from just making an account on feddit.org and interacting with them, in reddit if the admins decide to ban a community that community is just gone.
also having an echochambers isnt bad, like an instance like blahaj should be allowed to exist and not federate with instances that have a lax policy on transphobia, and thanks to lemmy's decentralised nature you can join or make an instance that does have wide federation
Just because lemmy is decentralized doesn't mean it doesn't for echochambers. I mean look at ml. Or look at what squid did as a moderator to worldnews and political memes.
Echo chambers are absolutely a thing on lemmy. They exist at different scales (instance, sub, individual) but they absolutely exist.
Idk if it's building echo chambers in this case or just wanting to get away from a toxic admin.
See the comments and actively of them before the vote and then as it was happening
Building an echo chamber isn't something done intentionally. Well... Sometimes it is.
It's most often created by avoiding people you find annoying, toxic, etc. As long as you keep up that reasoning you eventually only interact with people who mostly agree with you. You're blinding yourself to counter opinions. The definition of an echo chamber.
When avoiding ideas or being challenged yes. When avoiding abuse no
The former often feels like the later.
Even more so when you're not used to it.
This is only the case if you're annoyed by people disagreeing with you. That's what makes echo chambers.
You’re right, we should continue listening to the opinions of fascists and Lolita Express passengers until the end of time, otherwise we’ll be blindly bumping into furniture in our echo chamber.
I think you misread my comment. I agree that we shouldn't let the fascists speak. I'm arguing against the comment above that says blocking fascists is a slippery slope to blocking everyone.
Oh my bad
First: your comment appears to be a reply to them not me. I think that's where the confusion came from.
Second: You seem to be conflating listening to ideas with supporting them.
Third: Blocking places with bad ideas doesn't silence the people there or eliminate their ideas. It contributes to their isolation and echo chamber. Often more then yours. You in fact end up helping make them worse. Which of course is worse for everyone.
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Plenty have alleged that db0 admins are toxic. I don't think that but plenty have. See the ptb sub.
People throw around all kinds of slanderous language all the time: it's the internet, our accent is hyperbole. It's fine.
The bigger issue that I see here is the cultural tendency to not want your viewpoint challenged, and that's coming from both sides on this one. It's also an issue on ml and hexbear; and those instances will throw the same accusations right back in the face of the broader fediverse, and not be wrong.
Every defederation hurts the fediverse, and substantially. The issues that came up in 23' between .world and .ml, things like that destroy these kinds of projects. Defederation also doesn't change the minds of those who are on feddit, and for the db0, and versus vice. If you think someone is wrong, you should tell them so, and you need to be able to tell them.
I think it's the wrong move. I think defederation is always the wrong move. It's more important to fight about important things than it is to be comfortable right now. If db0 users think feddit is a bunch of fascist Zionists, then get into the comments and call them out. Don't just let them comfortably be Zionists while you ignore the problem. And the same applies to feddit. If they've got the right of it, take the fight and defend your points.
But defederation is a lazy and community damaging move, not just to db0, but to the entire project. Defederation is how Lemmy dies.
No. Having instances with varying approaches to defederation is good for the fediverse. Having no defederation is how you end up with nostr.
Hard disagree, and thats thoroughly evidenced by the usership and engagement numbers.
The numbers of fediverse users have more to do with onboarding, VC funding for marketing and the inherent nature of federation itself than it has to do with defederation policies
Social networks thrive because they are networks. De-federation collapses the network. Its not more complicated than that.
Less content, less interactions, less engagement.
If my instance didn't defederate hexbear I wouldn't be on the fediverse at all.
What makes it different from just blocking the instance at user-level?
Defederating also blocks the users on Lemmy. Instance blocking at the user level just blocks the communities in Lemmy, you have to block each user individually.
It makes it so I don't have to individually block the myriad trolls that emanate from that cesspool. I was seriously a couple pig shit images from never opening this site again.
I was reading the original discussion on dbzer0 and kept wondering what the removed by mod was under every comment agreeing with either partial ban or defed, so I looked at the modlog. It was literally the same pigshit picture posted over and over again, almost twenty times, by the same user, though fortunately I only had to see it once, by choice.
That's a serious personal commitment to assholery right there, and this is apparently just one of the people coming over to do this on dbzer0 comms. To be honest I can't claim to understand some of the political nuance that was coming up in the thread, but that one dude sure did make a strong argument for defed via the modlog, lol. If that's an example of what dbzer0 has to put up with from multiple individual users of another instance, then considering defederation is absolutely a legitimate discussion to have.
I think defederation only really makes sense if there is a concern of botting. Individual bad actors should be banned on a case by case basis, blanket banning seems shortsighted. However, I do believe there are bots on some instances now, compared to say a year ago where I believe they were more far and few between.
Part of my issue is also with bad actors “flooding the zone”. If enough noise is getting pushed constantly by bad actors/bots, it can sway public opinion just by virtue of people seeing those opinions more often. This was one of the things that killed Reddit for me, personally. Well that and a slew of other issues.
This is what I agree with. Regardless, I think almost the entire thread would agree that the fediverse/ lemmy is not fully cooked when it comes to the issue of federation.
it is important for people to be able to build spaces that provide community for people who have perfectly legitimate reasons for not wanting certain things around.
unfortunately providing that functionality inherently provides the functionality to create echo chambers for arbitrary reasons
you cannot have one without the other and I'd rather have both than neither
We tried they still defending the terrorist statr of Israel. It's like debating neonazis it is useless
Feddit.org bans criticism of Israel. There is no point in a Zionist instance which does not allow debate on its own turf.
The idealist, liberal myth of the “marketplace of ideas,” in the face of domestic and Israeli fascism.
Socialists—and in particular antifascists & Marxists—understand the paradox of tolerance.
Antifa: the Anti-fascist Handbook
You can't change the mind of someone you don't have access to.
Yes, that's the idea, making sure that Zionists don't have access to anyone.
Does no one here understand the younger generations access to ideas? I think the idea that every one claims of creating echo chambers is not an effective one. The law of diminishing returns (as a business term) states that all else held equal an increase in production( or the free debate or posting of opinions) will not produce more profit after a certain point ( or the changing of others opinions) . When it comes to people posting and espousing for state sponsored genocide I think we have hit the top of that curve. If you stop the flow of that information you are not creating echo chambers but more effectively stopping the spread of bullshit and hate. They have Xhitter. Fucking ban this genocidal shit every chance you get, either foundationally or personally. I dont get a whiff of this on shitjust works because I dont engage with it.
Feels an awful lot like "won't somebody think of the children?"
All that means is you've closed your eyes to the world around you. It doesn't mean that the world has changed. Avoidance doesn't help. It actually makes things worse because you cede the moral and intellectual territory.
Alternatively, you can actually take the fight to people instead of hiding from problems. And as far as what the younger generation sees, if you aren't providing arguments against fascism, against zionism, who is going to win that mind?
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Man you really beat the fuck out of that strawman.
Its not won't somebody think of the children... Its get this shit out of their face. Block it. Thats the beauty of the fediverse.
The initial point was that younger generations feed off engagements. You block the conversation and it doesn't exist. Its not a matter of closing your eyes to the world. Its closing the gates to the exact statement I made. Does no one understand how the younger generation get the information? Engagement. Was the answer. Failure to allow a platform will stop the spread of the misinformation in the first place.
'Never argue with a fool, onlookers may not be able to tell the difference'.
E: these people and often misinformation machines are not trying to have a discourse. They are planting propaganda. ie. The qoute above. Stop the shit in your home. End the spread by denying a platform.
E2: I mean. I get what your saying on an institutional level, but fuck that this is a social media instance argument so. My first edit stands.
Yeah. Is what it is. I don't think feddit is some kind of zionist propaganda machine, although its clear that it hosts plenty of zionists. I'd rather berate, abuse, mock, and contest them in the comments. I have enough respect for the youth to trust their judgement.
People love to criticize the marketplace of ideas and sure it's imperfect... but what's he alternative? Covering your ears and going lalalalala is even less effective than persuasion.
Some of the options can’t be discussed on lemmy.world because of rule 1.
I'm sad at how selectively they use that rule
*Did you know that it’s illegal for you to say,
“I want to kill the president of the United States of America?”*
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Well I don't think that's very effective either but if we can't have a discussion then we'll just have to disagree.
It’s worked before. If only we’d had more premature antifascists, we might have nipped it in the bud before it enveloped most of Europe and China.
What worked was the might of a multiple empires waging total war against one another. I don't think any Lemmings have that power at their disposal.
Of course this only worked after tens of millions of deaths, so it wasn't exactly the ideal solution even then.
Ban Zionists and Nazis and Fascist from all aspects of the public sphere. Europe was quick to ban all Russian media when the war began, we could literally do that with far right media.
Sure, if you have total power over the media ecosystem. But we don't.
So the question has to be asked--are you banning Zionism from the public square or simply exiling anti Zionism into a small echo-chamber where no one will hear it anymore and Zionism will go unchallenged? This is my problem with this approach.
You're on an instance that is defederated from Hexbear.net and Lemmygrad.ml, though, both fairly popular instances. Why not move to Lemmy.zip, if you oppose defederation?
This all stems from a fundamental misunderstanding that no one seems to be interested in clearing up.
The original post that brought the allegations of feddit being zionist to more people is this one, and the one that originated the allegations is this one.
The feddit.org admin inside explicitly states that the removal of the comment being talked about by the original thread is not about pro-zionism or anti-semitism.
Now what does the person claim it is about? That seems to be majorly ignored. Let me rephrase it in my own words.
In Germany, after national socialism, we have very strict rules on how you are allowed to talk about it, because there were unfortunately a lot of people still denying it or not believing it. One of those rules is that no statement may be made that makes national socialism seem better than it was. So something you can't say for example is "Trump's ICE is national socialism!". This seems extremely weird from an outside (the person saying it's) perspective, because obviously, yes, the tactics Trump uses are directly borrowed from national socialism.
However, if you look at national socialism as a whole, it was much worse than just ICE. Millions were killed etc.
Now, the person who makes the statement "Trump's ICE is national socialism!" is obviously using it to express that ICE is terrible. But if you want to look at it from a certain way (which German law likes to do) it's also saying that they're roughly equal, which, since Trump and ICE is currently not quite at the level of full national socialism, would minimize the severity of national socialism by bringing it "down" to the same level as the Trump regime and ICE.
Obviously, from a perspective of a person today, this seems ridiculous, because the current threat is ICE and not national socialism, so who cares about "how national socialism is talked about exactly"?! Isn't it much more important to make sure that ICE is taken appropriately seriously? And you would of course be right. But the stance is that the ends do not justify the means, and it is very much possible to fight against ICE without comparing it to the whole of national socialism.
This is what is being talked about by the mods/admins. It has nothing to do with either anti-semitism or anti-zionism.
Now, if you say something like "Trump's ICE resembles early national socialism!", that is a completely fine statement to make in the eyes of the law. You are actually comparing ICE to what it actually is, "early [stages of] national socialism", and not "national socialism [in general]".
Feelings are running high, even as I type these words, I can imagine it. But please try to think about this stance for a moment and try to see that it is not Trump ICE apologist, or trying to minimize what ICE is doing. It is simply trying to pay heed to two important issues at the same time, of which one has much more immediacy and current real impact on people's lives than the other.
I used this ICE example on purpose because it is even nearer than the genocide in Gaza. And because it is farther away from "full national socialism style genocide". I hope I could make the thinking in this example clear, and I hope at least a modicum of rationality can be attributed to this.
And now let's go back to the original zionist accusations. The original comment was removed because of the last part of it, which said "Providing material support to Israel is no different from providing material support to Nazi Germany". As much as people don't want to see it, the situation in Gaza is actually different than the situation in Nazi Germany. The Jewish population in Nazi Germany never launched rockets at Germans, in fact, jewish people in Nazi Germany were exceptionally peaceful. In Gaza, there is genocide happening, there is a power differential, and Palestinians need to fight back, but there is simply no rational denying that it's not the same as the genocide in Nazi Germany.
Obviously what is happening in Gaza is terrible and Israel needs to be condemned, but what they're doing is still not on the same level of evil as Nazi Germany. And thus you could argue that comparing the situation in Gaza to national socialism is minimizing the severity of national socialism. And thus the same kind of argument applies as in the previous example with ICE, it just is even less understandable for a person who didn't know/understand/agree with this argument.
I'm basically sure I'll be condemned as a zionist now, or whatever, go ahead.
As someone with a relative who died in a Nazi death camp, I resoundingly disagree. The scale may be relatively smaller, given that they're attempting to steal a much smaller area of land for their Lebensraum, but the level of evil is the same.
Look into the story of Muhammed Bhar or Hind Rijab and tell me it's not. I'll tell you your soul is compromised.
I absolutely agree with you, in fact I even said somewhere else in these comments that some of the stuff Israel is doing is on the same level or worse than what happened in Nazi Germany.
However, you said it literally yourself, it's not on the same scale (yet).
Also, if you read my original comment carefully, I'm personally not even agreeing with the way this issue is handled, in my opinion, go ahead, compare Israel to Nazis. My only goal was to create understanding, and show that no, feddit.org is not actually Zionist.
Not every land grab is lebensraum. Sure. Wars for territorial expansion are not intended to be legal. But you need more nuance.
No, not every land grab is a Lebensraum, but these are by Israel’s many own admissions over several generations.
- <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greater_Israel>
- Inside ‘Greater Israel’: myths and truths behind the long-time Zionist fantasy
- Israel continues to push for “Greater Israel” amid massacres in the West Bank and Gaza
Is this stuff censored in Germany?
Edit to add: Jugding by your modlog, I think you’re just a hasbara troll.
Good eye, blocked them
It's literally settler colonialism, German. The same as your lebensraum.
Sure.
Israel's is though. Because they're Zionazis.
Last I checked, the genocidal state of Israel is actually using weapons to vaporize Palestinians, thus leaving not even a trace of a war crime. Would you like to amend your statement?
You know full well that this is not relevant to the point I was making, and seems like arguing in bad faith. If so, then please reconsider being kind and rational.
If you are genuine, then: I hoped it was very obvious that I know that some of what Israel is doing is as bad, and worse than what happened in the Holocaust. That does not mean that the scale is the same, or that the situation leading up to this is the same. While very clear parallels can be seen, and the direction this is going is very clear as well, it is simply false that the genocide in Gaza is even in the same order of magnitude as the Holocaust yet. That does not mean that the genocide in Gaza isn't absolutely terrible, what I'm saying is that the Holocaust was just that bad. Is that enough amendment?
Look up what the term 'order of magnitude' means and please absorb the -fact- that you are wrong in this statement. The genocide in Palestine is literally the same order of magnitude as the holocaust.
Then look up the term 'lampshading' and refer back to your original comment at the beginning of this thread.
Crying preemptively about how people are going to call you a nazi doesn't make you any less of a nazi.
Very difficult to say this for sure. Some of the acts we've seen are on the same level, frankly. And how could you possibly measure this, objectively?
I don't think this can be argued meaningfully, and so should be removed from your argument.
As to the German law:
* Is that applicable here on Lemmy?
You can even get prosecuted for things you do outside of Germany if police gets their hands on you.
Most of the time this does not happen due to lack of public interest. Nobody wants to lock you up due to some bat shit post you made on the Internet. Unless it had a very wide reach and was particularly deplorable. And linked to your real identity. And there was an arrest warrant. And you entered German jurisdiction or an allies jurisdiction who extradites for that crime.
This only happens in the thoughts of paranoid people though.
I agree, but the death toll for example is a potential way to measure it. But again, I never said that the genocide in Gaza should happen, in fact I want it to be stopped by almost any means necessary, like not a counter-genocide.
I'm not providing any commentary about what should be done, I was just hoping to help people understand that feddit.org is not filled or run by Zionists.
I was attacked by people from dbzer0 and called "pro genocide" for saying that, but: There is of course a way to measure and compare violent acts. There is a whole academic field called "Comparative Genocide Studies" which, as you can guess, studies genocides, their differences, how they were committed and is trying to compare them or to categorize them. There are also people doing this from a military point of view studying how wars are fought and so on. That is something you can do - but not here on Lemmy.
Yes? Feddit.org is an austrian/german site and therefore has to operate under local rules. The fediverse is not some lawless cyberspace thing. It has servers running in datacenters and those servers have to account for local laws. It has people funding those servers and those people are people living in their home country have to obey local laws.
I think people attacking you as "pro-genocide" is exactly as reasonable as the German standard disallowing comparison of Nazism, which is funny.
The existence of a field of study which purports to compare genocide doesn't validate your assertion that Israel is less evil than the third Reich. I still don't think you can make this point.
The German law around speech comparing anything to Nazism sounds complex and subtle. I would argue that it's a matter for the courts to decide, rather than for unqualified moderators to overcomply in advance.
I don't think we can expect commenters to be as nuanced as an academic specializing in genocides.
On the legal front, it is to me morally obvious that that comment was pretty measured and deleting it was fucked. If you claim to do a fucked thing for legal reason, I think it's fair to demand evidence that you are under legal duress. Is there a history of feddit specifically or german fedi sites.in general being hammered for "antisemitic" comments?
The answer to that would determines how much I am pissed at german authorities for misapplying the law or at feddit admins for being biased and/or cowards.
If you are a coward then just don't talk at all sbout Gaza and don't defend zionism
You have a moral responsibility to disobey moral injustices, even when, actually, especially when they are codified into law. If you rely on the German standard you have no functional mechanism to communicate that a genocide as as bad as the Holocaust is occurring. Which is obviously ridiculous, and you should disobey that law.
I was against banning the communities, but the second link doesn't feel like it deserved to be banned. Many examples brought up in the vote were comments that were looking for a fight, using aggressive language.
It's also pretty telling that the vote was about banning access to communities, and after it finished, they banned the whole instance. I guess it is important to the community (or the folks that are paying to support the instance), that everyone is on the same page on this issue.
If you rely on the German standard, you'd never be able to call a genocide a genocide until its fully executed.
Which obviously supports those committing the genocide.
Have you really not seen me multiple times calling the genocide in Gaza a genocide? The ability to recognize the genocide in Gaza as a genocide is very much there, you really can't see it?
Look at the response in context of Feddit. Its not a critique of you, per se, its a critique of the German law/ idealogical approach. Lets suggest, in your words, a full "national socialist" genocide is at least possible in this day and age. The world did no know the full extent of Germany's action until well into the process.
If we rely on the logic of the German approach, we wouldn't be able to call the thing a thing until its too late. The point being made is that if you wait long enough to be able to a full historical analysis, you've effectively become an apologist for genocide on the basis of a lack of evidence.
And I would argue that Israels actions over the previous 80 years are extremely comparable to what the National Socialists did in Germany, and in some ways, even more disgusting. Germany ran concentration camps for around 12 years. Israel has been running them for almost 80. Germany treated it as a war of extermination. Israel is running it as a war of extermination. What other than a death camp would you call Israelli detention facilities?
The only difference is that we have the opportunity to stop Israel in its tracks, now, as its becomes clear the Israelies are not going to stop until the entire Palestinian population is eliminated. Disallowing or diminishing comparisons between the most famous historical genocide and the ongoing Israeli genocide in Palestine supports genocide
The thing is called a thing and should be called a thing. I.e. genocide. All genocide needs to be stopped at almost any cost. I don't have any capacity to argue further, so many people are saying things.
We all get why Germany has strong laws against antisemitism, given its history. That doesn't mean German support towards Israel need to be unconditional, which is what has happened, in effect. The left, the right and the center in Germany all seem to agree on one thing... unconditional support for Israel.
You are basically taking the same line as Scholz, despite the fact Israel has proven itself to be a fascist ethnostate that seems intent on genociding all its neighbours. Anyone who is still committed to justifying or both-sidesing the Israeli genocide of Palestinians needs a smack in the head imo.
I do accept the fact you have acknowledged the genocide. But then why are you so hung up about folk making equivalences between fascist genocidal Israelis and fascist genocidal Nazis? It's about the most obvious comparison one could make. Arguing that it's a false equivalence is simply another way to excuse the atrocities committed by Israel. Statements like "Israel has done a few bad things, but they are nowhere near as bad as the Nazis, so you mustn't make a direct comparison" are nothing more than genocide apologia. Just because Israel has done a "smaller" genocide (so far) doesn't mean shit to me. Zionist ideology is just as reprehensible as Nazi ideology.
I'm not even arguing for the things you're talking about, I'm just trying to bring some understanding. In literally none of the things I talked about, nor in what the feddit.org admins talked about, was there anything about keeping up unconditional support for Israel.
Ok. Well thats not what you are doing and its not what German law or Feddit is doing. People are trying to call a thing a thing, and are getting push back saying "You can't call this thing that thing".
You are doing the thing people are accusing you of; you are apologizing for genocide, not resisting it.
You again ignore that the "thing" I talk about is a "genocide", which is what is happening, and it is one of the worst things humans can do to each other and needs to be stopped at all costs.
You insist on not trying to understand, I'm done.
Untrue: it's a matter of accurate wording.
"The evidence so far indicates they're potentially…" or "For all we know, they could be…" gets the same idea across without violating integrity concerning degree of certainty or knowledge.
Technically & literally false: they are different.
A lawyer can challenge the falsehood.
All technically correct or opinion.
Claiming shit is true before we have the evidence to justify it is invalid & another way to state you're claiming shit you don't actually know: you're spouting shit.
Spouting shit is fine in cool countries that respect liberty.
However, Germany is not one of them.
Spouting the wrong shit in Germany is legally risky: apparently, the law parses words with autistic literalism.
By punishing verbal laziness, the law doesn't necessarily "support genocide".
It is coercing you to stop being a slob & express yourself with (annoying?) accuracy.
Only while saying the people resisting it are also wrong and doing Holocaust exceptionalism in defense of liberal zionists, lmao.
The original comment was good and correct. Supporting one settler state committing genocide is actually the same as supporting another.
I've never said that the people resisting their genocide were wrong to do it. You're intentionally misinterpreting what I'm saying.
I don't disagree with you, that's why I tried to explain the nuance, but apparently I failed, I'm sorry about that.
No, I'm really not. You're all over this thread repeating hasbara lies about Hamas and misrepresenting the history of "Israel" in comparison to the history of the Holocaust (you correctly include the Warsaw Ghetto in the Holocaust but appear to think the Nakba isn't relevant).
You might actually have convinced yourself that this is principled and nuanced anti-zionism, but it's not. You are being a zionist and I urge you to reconsider your positions on this.
You didn't fail to explain what you mean, I understood that. Where you failed is that you are, knowingly or unknowingly, manufacturing nuance that does not exist.
That's patently false.
True. But a lot of people on the whole Fediverse seem to be very narrow-minded black-and-white thinkers. In their logic, abiding to the law in Germany is equivalent to following direct orders from the Gestapo. Maybe you just don't want to get arrested and put in jail for running a niche community on the internet, but that's not even an argument to them.
Some people in that db0 thread even suggested feddit.org should just shut down completely, which is ridiculous. Every country must've laws you don't agree with, but you don't run and hide because of that.
This "we vs. them" attitude is exactly what's been criticized about MAGA all of the time, but doing it in this case is perfectly legitimate, somehow. I don't know what kind of brain gymnastics you'll have to do to come to a conclusion like this.
It's just exhausting trying to talk to these people. I say let them shut down their community and hang out in their radicalized bubble. Good riddance.
There is no black and white in settler colonialism
"Black and white thinking" is when you don't like people who defend their defense of genocide by saying "it's the law"?
"Opposing genocide is the same as being MAGA because of vibes" is really incredible analysis, keep it up.
Sometimes I wonder if German instances are a social experiment and our reactions are being recorded and analyzed.
The internet is awesome. You can discuss genocides with someone who named himself after an dictator who did several genocides! Who has a picture of this dictactor in his profile! And this guy is attacking others for "defense of genocide"! Great invention this internet thingy!
We have found the most historically literate feddit user.
Are you really denying that Lenin killed several millions of people?
Genocide is when you kill a bunch of people, apparently.
Yes. Further, genocide isn't simply killing people, war isn't necessarily genocide even if it results in millions of deaths.
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For example the genocide on the don cossacks:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De-Cossackization
and of course the whole Red Terror which killed several millions:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Terror
What genocides did Lenin commit? How was he a "dictator?" Do you have any idea what you're talking about, or are you just saying things like this to avoid needing to have an actual point?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De-Cossackization
"In Germany after National Socialism we have all been brainwashed to support genocide and Zioism and have to legally support our government sending weapons to a genocide because we like the previous one so much. Also we have a Gestapo which enforces this just like how we did in WW2".
Literally putting on the classic Nazi disclaimer
Can you explain why Germans have learned absolutely nothing from the Holocaust?
America and Western Europe were more interested in fighting the cold war, so they rehabilitated most of the nazis and put them in charge of everything.
This is only one small example, the practice was widespread in West German as well as NATO generally.
Notice the extreme difference here, between 77% and 14%. Even if East Germany's de-nazification was probably not as thorough as it could and should have been due to practical concerns, it was still nothing like in the West. I'm saying this because I fully expect the "both sides did it" deflection from westerners (which is what the linked article is obviously trying to do in this quote). Notice also "senior officials" vs. "workers".
I don't disagree with your assessment that some kind of propaganda in support of zionism and maybe even genocide is happening. But if you really see support of genocide and zionism in what I personally just said, I really don't know what I could say to convince you. It seems you're not truly listening to me and trying to understand. I can just hope eventually you will see that there is no point to us fighting, and I wish you well.
Edit: and to say "Germans have learned literally nothing from the Holocaust" is just ridiculous. You're using false hyperbole to make Germans in general (who have very diverse political opinions individually!) seem like literal evil, and that simply helps no one except the ones that want us to fight.
The German government is sending 30% the weapons to mass murder Palestinians in a concentration camp. This denial of full German government support for genocide is why nobody takes Germans seriously when they claim to care about the Holocaust. Take a long hard look at this image and see what you can take away from it
If you cannot differentiate the German government from me or the people of Germany, then I can't help you. "Full" is something entirely different. I hate what my government is doing.
Oh no, people are not trying to understand your subtle and nuanced argument of "Palestinian genocide and the Holocaust are different because the Jews never fought back".
You are trying to reduce my argument to one dimension that "sounds" reasonable, while ignoring things like it literally being in the charter of Hamas to destroy all Jewish people in Israel. And you're going to say it is the prerogative of Palestinians to fight back, and again I would completely agree with you. It just doesn't make much sense to argue with you, so I'm going to stop.
You mean the outdated charter that has since been replaced to clarify opposition to the settler colonial state, rather than Jews as a whole?
That is good and I did not know that.
Oh, yeah, that's so much better. "We will keep fighting until we eliminate a country" is such a peaceful and lovable sentiment!
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How surprising, you're doing Hasbara. The charter was irrelevant soon after it was written, Hamas changed many times very quickly throughout its history, and the charter you're referring to was in fact literally replaced with a new one in 2017. You are a zionist.
No, you wouldn't and you didn't. The trick of "fighting back is their right but they're doing it wrong" isn't fooling anyone.
And there it is the Zionist blood libel against Palestinians and repeat of genocide propaganda.
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What I said had nothing to do with that. Anyway, I can't keep up with all the stuff people are saying to me, so please excuse if I don't elaborate further.
What I mean was in the time before the Holocaust even started.
When do you think "Israelis" started committing genocide against Palestinians? Hint: "Israel" is a settler colony.
The current one? Roughly around 1919 with the British support of an Israeli state.
That's a fair answer. And when was Hamas founded? By comparing those two dates, you can see that it's actually the same as Jews fighting back against the Holocaust.
"The Jews never fought back" is certainly an incredible take, especially from a German.
Do you not understand colonialism? Of course you think history began on October 7th, 2023, but only when it concerns the actions of "Israelis".
“The Jews never fought back” is not what I said. Again, you intentionally try to misinterpret what I said. I was specifically talking about the time before the Holocaust even started, there was no reason for Germans to fear Jewish people, as they were just normal people.
Do you really not understand that Hamas did not exist before the genocide of Palestinians started? They cannot have provoked this in any way, as you repeatedly have attempted to imply with your arguments that this is different from the Holocaust.
The "Israelis" are colonizers. Not a single acre of the land they live on is rightfully theirs. It's all stolen, except maybe a very, very small minority of Jews who lived there prior to the colonization AND consider themselves "Israelis" now AND still live on their ancestral properties, but even they still benefit from the colonialism.
I'm not misinterpreting what you said. It's just that what you said doesn't actually make sense the way you think it does, because you think (incorrectly) that this is a thousand year old religious conflict. That's orientalist propaganda designed to make you support the existence of "Israel".
In reality, where this is not a thousand year conflict but a hundred year colonization and genocide, the only way what you said makes any sense is if the Jews didn't fight back. Because Hamas is fighting back and you are arguing it's different from the Jewish reaction to the Holocaust. The Jews did fight back. It's not different.
Edit: I just realized this is a 10 hour old comment I replied to in the parallel thread.
I'm completely aware that this originally started with the zionist invasion of palestine in the early 20th century.
From your other comment next to this one...
Do you not see how you're not being consistent?
I do understand what you mean, however the attempted genocide that christians, jews and muslims are doing to each other is much older than any of that. You do not truly know anymore who started, the only thing I personally know is that the same way that a genocide against Palestinians needs to be stopped, so does a call for genocide against Israelis. Of course, due to other countries (including Germany) support of Israel, Palestine needs special protection and the immediate ceasing of all support to Israel.
What you do not see is that we don't truly disagree, I'm just trying to explain one of the multi-faceted thought patterns that go on in some people's brains. Multiple different concepts can co-exist at the same time, and do not necessarily contradict each other, like saying that the genocide in gaza needs to be stopped immediately and the genocide in Gaza and in the Holocaust not being the literal same.
Incorrect and also hasbara. This is an ahistorical orientalist fabrication that is designed to obscure the very clear and obvious colonial nature of "Israel".
We do disagree. Your entire view of the so-called "conflict" is based on zionist lies, which is why you can never meaningfully oppose it no matter how much you think you do.
Wait... Are you saying that Israelis became the "nomad nation" and moved from country to country just for shits and giggles? That they left Israel because they wanted to, and not because the Persians persecuted them?
Could you elaborate? Does that mean that Israelis shoot rockets at themselves?
Of course you may speak somewhat neutrally on National Socialism and even compare current politics to them. But you must be able to prove your point or show your work. Denial and making light based on "this is just my opinion, mate" is unacceptable.
Depending on the crime the burden of proof lies on the accused. This is fine.
I didn’t notice c/europe was zionists. I just typed israel, I see highly (legitimately) upvoted posts against it.
I’m sure you can find some unsavory stuff, but I haven’t stumbled upon it once.
On the other hand I’ve been confronted to authoritarian bootlickers too many times from ml. If you don’t defederate from them too then you’re not being consistent.
Lemmy.ml has a lot of communists, and dbzer0 is mainly anarchists with some communists as well. We have a lot more in common with each other than with feddit.org, which as we can see has a bad history with Zionism at the admin level. It's entirely consistent to defederate feddit.org, which dbzer0 voted for as an instance, while remaining federated with Lemmy.ml.
You should read the examples give by db0. They are using the term Zionist for anyone with nuanced takes. The accusations are almost slanderous and feddit was not asked for their side before starting the vote.
I'd prefer to have a less biased title for this thread because this is a very one-sided point of view and just parrots what the db0 admin claims without questioning them.
Edit: Thanks for putting it in quotation marks, OP.
Disappointing how many downvotes you have, especially given zero other responses thus far. You've got a valid point, and the mod/admin teams at db0 already have their own behavior issues, so there's surely more to the story than this.
It's a pretty emotional topic for a lot of people, so I'm not surprised. Still, I'd advise everyone who downvotes to at least take a look at what the other side has to say. This thread has a feddit.org mod comment on the situation:
https://sh.itjust.works/post/55149672
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I have downvoted. You are a zionist defending genocidal pedo murders and your opinion is disregarded. You do not deserve any reply but just to be bullied. Fascist cunt fuck.
I mean in addition to instances zionism the feddit.org admin used a troll comm to called out several users for the crime of upvoting the defed thread, and then those users started getting DM harassment
Love how someone is using that exact same mwog thread to show how the feddit admin was wronged
Look, they get to advocate for genocide and mass murder, but if you ask them to stop, they're the real victims!
"We should be very careful lest we hurt the feelings of Zionists"
Its such an empty criticism when they federate with the ml instances.
I don't get it. Huh? I find sentiment on .ml extremely anti-Zionist.
they didn't say it was hypocritical, just empty criticism. They are implying that ml instances are no less egregious about the types of bad content they allow, even if the content itself is different
They are wrong.
You might be a little biased.
Unlike yourself and that other user, who are simply neutral observers? lmao
"B-b-but my side virtuous (in all ways, and can do no wrong), while their side ignoramus (everything they do is because they are poopy-heads)!"
I wish I could add /s here but a good half the population on earth seems to hold to this as an invariant position, solidarity in the face of all obstacles, i.e. the Nazi bar effect.
Case in point: who doesn't love it when a religious institution offers food and shelter and medical care to the needy, or counsels people to forgive, laying down their burdens and seek therapy to thereby travel lighter through the world? It is the diddling kids part that for some strange reason (/s on this one) people tend to get upset?
Since we were talking about Zionism here, I will mention that Deuteronomy 13:5 (in the Torah, part of the Old Testament for Christian and Muslim and offshoot religious branches such as Mormonism) provides an EXTREMELY stern warning about those who would misuse their authority to lead people astray.
TLDR: intolerance paradox - if you tolerate the intolerant, it corrupts the entire system, giving it a bad reputation when people see the worst excesses and extrapolate that to infer the properties of the whole. e.g. Reddit is fascist, hence we did not stay and put up with it but rather moved here.
They're pretty anti zionist. Only because Israel represents the west in all its brutality. They fully support the Russian invasion and genocide of Ukraine though, hence the hypocrisy.
wut? Even lemmygrad.ml doesn't - their support of the Russian Federation's invasion has always been critical, not full. Just like their support for Hamas is critical - it's extremely obvious that neither the capitalist-run RF nor the Islamist Hamas are groups they agree with at all.
(I am not a campist, I'm simply explaining the campist concept of "critical support")
So critical that we never ever hear them criticize Russia for it.
So critical you'll be instantly banned for saying anything critical of Russian imperialism.
Did you know that inventing "genocides" based on perceived vibes and presenting them as equivalent to extremely real, well-documented, and universally agreed upon actual genocides is a form of genocide denial? Liberals such as yourself have been doing the work of fascists like this for a long time, this type of Holocaust denial is called "double genocide theory".
What Russia is doing:
Definition of Genocide:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegations_of_genocide_of_Ukrainians_in_the_Russo-Ukrainian_war
Unless you think all the shit Russia is doing is just CIA propaganda.
Everything is a cia color revolution to them.
No, this one is just a self-serving fabrication by a few nazi-supporting governments.
As I said, by treating this as equivalent to the near universally recognized genocide in Gaza, you are engaging in a form of genocide denial. Funny, the map of (the very few) countries that recognize this has a large overlap with the map of countries that do the same form of denial with the Holocaust.
Is your name Lenin Weave after the way you dodge criticism?
I don't see how highlighting Khurbn denial is dodging criticism.
Somehow, you don't see the irony.
You weren't criticizing me, I am just watching you dodge theirs.
There is no genocide in Ukraine. Ukranians are Russians.
Truly a .ml stance haha.
Do you think the people in Ukraine consider themselves Russian? Is that why they're fighting tooth and nail to avoid the Russian oppressors?
They're fighting because the US made them. They would be perfectly happy Russians if not for NATO.
And this is why normal users look at .ml with disdain haha
I think they're talking about stuff like the holodomor or the uyghurs in china.
Because the ml instances support zionism..?
Ah but you see clearly opposing imperialism is just as bad as supporting it, I'm such an enlightened centrist
Lemmy.ml, Hexbear.net, and Lemmygrad.ml are all extremely anti-Zionist. Further, dbzer0 defederated from Lemmygrad.ml, and is only federated with Lemmy.ml and Hexbear.net. What are you trying to say?
Nobody would ever accuse you people of defending Jews so it can't be that you are Zionists. Its about the simping for authoritarian regimes.
Communists absolutely defend Jewish peoples, Zionism is anti-semitic, especially anti-Yiddish. We also don't "simp for authoritarian regimes," we support socialist systems where the working classes hold the authority in society, rather than capitalists. None of this is "simping," I support worker-run structures because it's more equitable and democratic.
I feel like, despite this being explained every time, people still think "dictatorship of the proletariat" is a bad thing because of the word "dictatorship"...
Yep, or they realize it means democratic control by the proletariat, dictatorship against capitalists and fascists, as Marx intended, but then think socialist countries all misunderstood Marx and established capitalist-style dictatorships of the few. This is a deeply chauvanist attitude though, that assumes people in socialist countries too stupid to understand basic Marxist concepts (despite having higher functional literacy rates than the US Empire).
No its because this person is lying. They dont honestly believe in a worker run democracy. Its just a palatable phrase they use to appear less extreme.
They support a political class with total control benevolently dishing out to the working population.
What makes you think this way?
Nope, not what I believe at all, and the fact that you have to invent my beliefs proves you can't actually argue against my real ones.
Idk where you got that those sites don't defend Jews. I feel very supported in those places, and the moderation on Hexbear at least takes antisemitism seriously(I can't say for the other two because I'm on there less often, but I'm yet to hear anything that would make me doubt that they defend their Jewish users as well)
You're on a .ml account so I'm by default assuming you're untrustworthy. If you cant see why anyone might get that then you might be blind. I'm sure I could go dig up some examples but then you'd have won by wasting my time proving something that is already obvious.
"you are on a * account so I will assume shit"
dumbest logic i have read today, instead of bringing up a real example you say this? you are wasting my time writing this reply right now but that's good because i'm on company time
well i guess now i will assume every piefed user is a fed /s
Look you're only mad because its about you. It doesnt matter what you say because all I see is that .ml and a wall of coping text.
"People supporting "Israel", the Zionist entity enacting genocide on Palestinians, are identical to people supporting the USSR, which eliminated Nazism and saved tens of millions of lives from extermination"
Russia is, in fact, not enacting genocide on Ukrainians. It's carrying out an invasion which we can condemn, but calling every conflict a genocide is actually a form of genocide denial, because it minimizes the horrors of actual genocides.
If you want to see criticism of Russia in Hexbear (my main instance), yesterday there was a post asking for peoples' opinions on Putin. Here's mine so you can see how much we "love the Russian government". You may be surprised to see that most comments and upvotes are highly critical of the contemporary Russian government.
Russia is, in fact, enacting genocide in Ukraine.
What Russia is doing:
Definition of Genocide:
The source for the tens of thousands of Ukrainian children being abducted is, unsurprisingly, the Ukrainian government. The Russian government makes claims about Ethnic Russians being cleansed in Donbas and I don't take those accusations as true either, until confirmed by independent journalistic reports. You'd do well to do a more critical analysis of wartime propaganda by countries involved in wars. I've had this conversation before with several people, revisited the sources available, and there is no independent journalistic work proving tens of thousands of Ukrainian children being abducted.
The ICC has an arrest warrant on Putin for these abductions.
Putin has used a ukaz/presidential decree to streamline the process of Ukrainian children being made Russian.
Here's your Independent Journalistic Report:
But sure, keep telling the world it's only Ukrainian propaganda. I'm ending this conversation here to log off, I've got better things to do than deal with a debatebro hexbear user trying to excuse genocide.
"The source for the crime is, unsurprisingly, the victim, the criminal is denying any wrongdoing" hmmm
In no way shape or form Ukraine is a genocide. By using that term for both Palestine and Ukraine you are just demeaning the word, and actually helping the propaganda against Palestine.
Ukraine is defending its sovereignty, and it is experiencing a national aggression by Russia, but what Israel is doing to Gaza is in a different sphere.
What Russia is doing:
Definition of Genocide:
Nice try but the USSR sided with the Nazis remember. They dont get any credit.
The communists spent the decade prior to World War II trying to form an anti-Nazi coalition force, such as the Anglo-French-Soviet Alliance which was pitched by the communists and rejected by the British and French. The communists hated the Nazis from the beginning, as the Nazi party rose to prominence by killing communists and labor organizers, cemented bourgeois rule, and was violently racist and imperialist, while the communists opposed all of that.
When the many talks of alliances with the west all fell short, the Soviets reluctantly agreed to sign a non-agression pact, in order to delay the coming war that everyone knew was happening soon. Throughout the last decade, Britain, France, and other western countries had formed pacts with Nazi Germany, such as the Four-Power Pact, the German-French-Non-Agression Pact, and more. Molotov-Ribbentrop was unique among the non-agression pacts with Nazi Germany in that it was right on the eve of war, and was the first between the USSR and Nazi Germany. It was a last resort, when the west was content from the beginning with working alongside Hitler.
Harry Truman, in 1941 in front of the Senate, stated:
Not only that, but it was the Soviet Union that was responsible for 4/5ths of total Nazi deaths, and winning the war against the Nazis. The Soviet Union did not agree to invade Poland with the Nazis, it was about spheres of influence and red lines the Nazis should not cross in Poland. When the USSR went into Poland, it stayed mostly to areas Poland had invaded and annexed a few decades prior. Should the Soviets have let Poland get entirely taken over by the Nazis, standing idle? The West made it clear that they were never going to help anyone against the Nazis until it was their turn to be targeted.
The communists were responsible for 80% of the total Nazi casualties. The communists beat the Nazis.
I'm gonna paste a comment that I wrote some time ago responding to the whole "Soviets sided with the Nazis" lie that is often propagated on Lemmy. Feel free to respond to it, I'd love to engage with you in its contents:
The only country who offered to start a collective offensive against the Nazis and to uphold the defense agreement with Czechoslovakia as an alternative to the Munich Betrayal was the USSR. From that Wikipedia article: "The Soviet Union announced its willingness to come to Czechoslovakia's assistance, provided the Red Army would be able to cross Polish and Romanian territory; both countries refused." Poland could have literally been saved from Nazi invasion if France and itself had agreed to start a war together against Nazi Germany, but they didn't want to. By the logic of "invading Poland" being akin to Nazi collaboration, Poland was as imperialist as the Nazis.
As a Spaniard leftist it's so infuriating when the Soviet Union, the ONLY country in 1936 which actively fought fascism in Europe by sending weapons, tanks and aviation to my homeland in the other side of the continent in the Spanish civil war against fascism, is accused of appeasing the fascists. The Soviets weren't dumb, they knew the danger and threat of Nazism and worked for the entire decade of the 1930s under the Litvinov Doctrine of Collective Security to enter mutual defense agreements with England, France and Poland, which all refused because they were convinced that the Nazis would honor their own stated purpose of invading the communists in the East. The Soviets went as far as to offer ONE MILLION troops to France (Archive link against paywall) together with tanks, artillery and aviation in 1939 in exchange for a mutual defense agreement, which the French didn't agree to because of the stated reason. Just from THIS evidence, the Soviets were by far the most antifascist country in Europe throughout the 1930s, you literally won't find any other country doing any remotely similar efforts to fight Nazism. If you do, please provide evidence.
The invasion of "Poland" is also severely misconstrued. The Soviets didn't invade what we think of nowadays when we say Poland. They invaded overwhelmingly Ukrainian, Belarusian and Lithuanian lands that Poland had previously invaded in 1919. Poland in 1938, a year before the invasion:
"Polish" territories invaded by the USSR in 1939:
The Soviets invaded famously Polish cities such as Lviv (sixth most populous city in modern Ukraine), Pinsk (important city in western Belarus) and Vilnius (capital of freaking modern Lithuania). They only invaded a small chunk of what you'd consider Poland nowadays, and the rest of lands were actually liberated from Polish occupation and returned to the Ukrainian, Belarusian and Lithuanian socialist republics. Hopefully you understand the importance of giving Ukrainians back their lands and sovereignty?
Additionally, the Soviets didn't invade Poland together with the Nazis, they invaded a bit more than two weeks after the Nazi invasion, at a time when the Polish government had already exiled itself and there was no Polish administration. The meaning of this, is that all lands not occupied by Soviet troops, would have been occupied by Nazis. There was no alternative. Polish troops did not resist Soviet occupation but they did resist Nazi invasion. The Soviet occupation effectively protected millions of Slavic peoples like Poles, Ukrainians and Belarusians from the stated aim of Nazis of genociding the Slavic peoples all the way to the Urals.
All in all, my conclusion is: the Soviets were fully aware of the dangers of Nazism and fought against it earlier than anyone (Spanish civil war), spent the entire 30s pushing for an anti-Nazi mutual defence agreement which was refused by France, England and Poland, tried to honour the existing mutual defense agreement with Czechoslovakia which France rejected and Poland didn't allow (Romania neither but they were fascists so that's a given), and offered to send a million troops to France's border with Germany to destroy Nazism but weren't allowed to do so. The Molotov-Ribbentrop pact was a tool of postponing the war in a period in which the USSR, a very young country with only 10 years of industrialization behind it since the first 5-year plan in 1929, was growing at a 10% GDP per year rate and needed every moment it could get. I can and do criticise decisions such as the invasion of Finland, but ultimately even the western leaders at the time seem to generally agree with my interpretation:
“In those days the Soviet Government had grave reason to fear that they would be left one-on-one to face the Nazi fury. Stalin took measures which no free democracy could regard otherwise than with distaste. Yet I never doubted myself that his cardinal aim had been to hold the German armies off from Russia for as long as might be” (Paraphrased from Churchill’s December 1944 remarks in the House of Commons.)
“It would be unwise to assume Stalin approves of Hitler’s aggression. Probably the Soviet Government has merely sought a delaying tactic, not wanting to be the next victim. They will have a rude awakening, but they think, at least for now, they can keep the wolf from the door” Franklin D. Roosevelt (President of the United States, 1933–1945), from Harold L. Ickes’s diary entries, early September 1939. Ickes’s diaries are published as The Secret Diary of Harold Ickes.
"One must suppose that the Soviet Government, seeing no immediate prospect of real support from outside, decided to make its own arrangements for self‑defence, however unpalatable such an agreement might appear. We in this House cannot be astonished that a government acting solely on grounds of power politics should take that course” Neville Chamberlain House of Commons Statement, August 24, 1939 (one day after pact's signing)
I'd love to hear your thoughts on this
I love a wall of text as much as the next autist but im going to be a low effort in my response because I fucking hate having this conversation with tankies because its always so bad faith.
First of all I need to clear up that I dont think USSR sided with the Nazi's because they supported Nazi ideology. I'm saying they dont get any credit for joining the war or fighting against hilter because they choose to side with him and support his war effort and only joined because they were backstabbed.
Ok so to sum up you're point you're saying that the USSR did the most to fight against nazi germany because they sold weapons to the anti facists in the spanish civil war and one of their westernized diplomats proposed a collective security agreement and they offered to send 1 million troops to france(this would never happen) and said they would support chzek despite having no land border. Then you give 4 paragraphs coping about soviet invasions. No mention of the
You're ignoring historical context surrounding the USSR and then acting surprised at other countries reactions. I dont think any of what you've said really negates them signing an agreement with Hilter to divide up the east and provide support to Hitler's war effort.
I'm the bad faithed one? You don't engage with the fact that soviet-occupied "Poland" was actually Ukraine, Belarus and Lithuania, reduce the 10 years of collective security proposals under the Litvinov doctrine to "an agreement that was never gonna happen anyway", and you minimize the soviet war contributions in my own country against fascism 3 years before even WW2 started. You also completely ignore the fact that the English, French and Americans perfectly understood the Molotov Ribbentrop for what it was: buying time against Nazi invasion because they had been left alone by western Europe.
Answer this question: what would have happened to the "polish" territories invaded by the Soviets had it been the Nazis instead (only alternative possible). Then explain to me how that's desirable.
You're low effort in your response not because "I'm bad faith", you're low effort because you don't have shit to say to historical evidence contradicting your western-sponsored anticommunism.
Please find the open Zionist admins and mods of major communities who are from .ml. They have their own issues, but Zionism isn't one of them.
Does the NZ in your username stand for NaZi? Fucc off colonizer
feels like brexit in that they will no longer have influence or discussion with their sworn enemies
they will just circle jerk on their marxist island
lmao
It just shows how some people know jack shit and still throw their opinions around LMAO
This thread in a nutshell, lmao.
So many comments jesus. I ain't reading all that. Free Palestine and Death to Israel.
✊🏽
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And Death to Germany!
Curiously that's the same sentiment the Zionist German left espouses: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Germans_(political_current)
Such an excellent thread for filling out my block list
The funniest part is how many people have self identified as block-me in the replies to this post.
These people are bad for removing themselves from contact with fascists
I'll show them. I'm going to remove myself from contact with them.
I'll just block you instead
You put the L in Liberal.
Look they're self reporting right here!
Yeah add me to that list too. I don't like talking to fascists.
Its funny… regardless if its the Web of old, IRC channels, a real life small gardening commune (Kleingartenverein) or now here on the Fediverse - there will always be petty wars to be fought. Perhaps its part of the “human experience”, who knows…
Whether or not you agree with db0's decision, framing it as a mere "petty war" is disingenuous.
it's a "petty war" because nobody that is a part of either side has any real power to change the world, and they are both willing to die on their respective hills just to prove to the other that "you" are wrong.
the fight itself is less than noteworthy that in a few weeks nobody will remember or care unless they stood on their hill.
The members of db0 who don't want to see and hear Zionists indeed do have the power to change their instance and did, so I don't get what you mean by saying they don't have the power to change the world so it's petty.
did you feel that? I just changed the world.
with my fart.
I mean, if you and I were arguing about whether or not you could fart, and you demonstrated you could fart, yeah.
TIL that containing a zionist infestation is a petty war.
If you count fighting with righteous fury in a little niche corner of the Fediverse which in itself is also a pretty tiny niche corner of the net everything other than a petty war... well, i guess everybody needs a hobby.
"fighting with righteous fury" my dude it was a vote. Don't over sell it.
Why do you feel offended by the fact that another instance wants to ensure a safe space for its users?
I wouldn't use the term "offended"... I think "amused" is better fitting, the same I would feel about a conflict in the "Kleingartenverein"
"Und noch was, ich bin nicht wütend. Bitte schreibt nicht darüber dass ich wütend wäre"
the german wants everyone to know how NOT MAD they are
Except that the “Zionist infestation” is a fictional construct in this case. db0 is fighting ghosts.
Those who deliberately kill innocent people lose the right to be considered the resistance. They should kill the fucking IDF. But not kids at a music festival or random civilians.
All violence in a settler colony, including the violence perpetrated by and against the colonizers, is the fault of the colonizers.
You're right, they should be given:
- advanced military technology and intelligence data
- ways to openly organize without being killed by Mossad, Shin Bet, and the IOF
- perfect control over every person who happens to pick up a gun during any of their operations
to make sure they can more efficiently kill only soldiers.
Since we're wishing for things, I also wish every "Israeli" genocide supporter would just disappear without the resistance having to do anything.
What a dehumanising and despicable statement. The people murdered by Hamas did nothing wrong. Certainly nothing that could justify their deaths. They did not colonise anything either; they were simply born there.
This conflict really brings out the worst in some people. On the one hand, they blame the murder of innocent people on colonialism, and on the other, on the alleged human shield tactic.
This contextualisation, relativisation and, in some cases, romanticisation of human suffering is absolutely disgusting and must stop.
False. Resistance group are still resistance group even when they commit crimes. They still have the right to continue to fight Isrsel currenctly commiting genocide.
You would reject all the resistance mouvements and their sacrifice in previous occupations with your logic
Interesting that finally there starts to be some reprecusions for the Germans being so pro genocide. I know it's a very small gesture in a very nish social media but I'm happy about it neverthe less.
Sadly that seems to be upsetting some 😞
In those cases, no one being upset would probably show nothing was achieved.
If it's upsetting to someone they're either a Zionist or a fascist. This thread has brought a lot of those horrible people out of the woodwork. It's good we can easily see them for who they are now.
"By their actions you shall recognize them" and all that.
A simplified world view is really tempting sometimes. What if I told you that fighting anti semitism and being pro genocide are two things that can be distinguished from each other?
tying the criticism of pissraeli state with antisemitism in general is antisemitic.
"my fellow jewish people must be supportive of a genocidal settler colonial state" is a bad look that'll bite the propagandists in the ass in the future and i feel sorry for the jewish people getting caught ip in that.
If you want to fight antisemitism, you should be fighting Israel. They're the largest source of antisemitism worldwide by enacting a genocide in the name of Judaism.
Bro shut your fucking zionist mouth up. Nobody likes you and nobody gives a flying fuck about your excuses for the pedo genocidal murder country. Stuff your holes with wrustels and stfu.
Sorry, but this is not how you talk to people.
🤭 Oh no… here is the catch tho: who supports pedofilia, cannibalism, genocide, rape, murder to innocent people is a not a person.
At best you are a stupid incel brainwashed by your family to love some religious fanatics, at worst you are a low life demon sitting in tel aviv doing propaganda. I do not have respect for demons and I only have pity for kids and dogs.
You are just fucking revolting.
This solidifies my decision for migrating my account from there to piefed.social. Not because I support those views but because this means that many of the communities I’m subscribed to won’t be visible anymore from there. Personally I’ve not seen the problem in the mentioned communities but I also don’t actively participate in deep political discussions especially regarding Israel/Palestine since I don’t have the energy for that.
You know you can just have multiple accounts on multiple instances, right? That gets you just about as full a view on the Fediverse as you might want. Heck, the only reason I'm not doing it is because I'm lazy.
Also, whining about db0 then moving to the instance that literally implements CCP politics and shadow profiling and comes from a dev known to have had a chip against heteronormativity and weirdness (if not against neurodivergence) is... not the win you think it is.
I know but I hate account jumping. I prefer to have everything in one place.
Oh that's absolutely understandable. The more with how bloated interfaces tend to be these days.
Just mind, you have to consider what does it mean for your instance to be open enough to serve you everything in one account.
Yup that's the way to go. Actually my first client I used for Lemmy (Liftoff) made multiple accounts really easy since you could switch feeds and accounts in one click and quickly. But even if you just use multiple accounts on the web switching between tabs or using Tesseract isn't that difficult.
so which fediverse platform dev isn't evil?
Heck if I know, but at least we know of the ones who are (eg.: feddit.org are "good German soldiers").
Can you provide some sources for that?
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Thank you. No wonder I haven't seen stuff like this if it's posted in meme communities.
It's been on the public fediverse eye enough that I don't need to do your homework for you, but just look for mentions to piefed in this same sub. One of the exemplary things that was found was that you can't eg.: "upload a picture that contains the word 'anonymous'" and that Piefed lies to you about why.
Okay great, you assume that everyone reads everything. I was just asking for examples because I haven't seen any and figured you must have seen some and can link them.
Counterpoints:
If you want to know a bit more about Rimu, the main Piefed dev, he made an interview a couple of months ago: https://tubefree.org/w/jLPZXv1Jynv7LRcuoteARf
He's usually quite nice and helpful. That's not always the case with people who try to spread disinformation about Piefed.
Why not go to an even broader instance like Lemmy.zip?
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Showing your true colours here. By the way, it's not "political discussions regarding Israel/Palestine", call it by its name: genocide of Palestinians by Israel.
Yes the genocide of Palestinians is bad but I have only so much energy to care deeply about things in the world. I can't change anything about what is happening there, it's not in my power to do so.
Edit: And comments like yours are the reason why I usually abstain from participating in "political discussions". It's exhausting.
The point is to exhaust you down to the point you don't fight back.
I don't think you have bad intent here, but I think Riverside didn't like the implication that "deep political discussions" are necessary to understand that "Israel/Palestine" is in fact "the colonial genocide of Palestinians by Israel". I think that's fair. It's OK to not want to discuss politics online, but you don't need "deep discussions" to know that colonialism is always wrong.
And it is also not what I said or meant. Assumptions are dangerous. And people also have to keep in mind that not everyone speaks perfect English. Sometimes things get lost in translation or it can be difficult for someone to articulate themselves in a non-native language (like me).
Are you boycotting Israeli goods, media, and anything else that could give money to the Zionist entity? That's the bare minimum any person of conscience should do.
Yes, maybe that would do something but also as I said I can't care about everything to the fullest degree or be informed about everything because no one has that energy. For example I could ask you the same regarding veganism and the vast majority of people won't care about that (I care because every decision buying food, clothing and other things directly impacts the lives of animals for example).
I know people who work all the time and have energy. You have probably a mixture of privilege and exhaustion. We're talking about scanning some barcodes so you can help avoid preventing fellow human beings, including children, from being massacred.
I am a vegan lol
Am I privileged as a trans woman?
There are many easy things that add up and take up mental space and lead to exhaustion and empathy/compassion fatigue.
You know what I mean. Vegans are the vast minority among people.
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I have actually seen some influence agents pushing iran war and israel and such just lately. Usg must be expanding out to lemmy with their bs.
lol so you join the place with the social credit score
Oooh the irony!
What is that?
piefed.social keeps a hidden trust score that goes down when people do stuff the piefed dev personally doesn't like. there was recently a bunch of drama about it
Jesus fuck.
It's literally just a number admins can use to sus out if a user might potentially be a toll. It's basically reddit karma but hidden from everyone but admins.
.ml users tried to make it a big deal because people were leaving lemmy for PieFed.
Reddit Karma is not good, I don't want a Karma system on the Fediverse. That was one of the worst things about Reddit. Karma is essentially ass-kissing points, you get them for kissing ass, and you loose them for making people butt-hurt.
I can't support that, it creates nasty psychological patterns that make people prone to siding with popularity and not with what's right.
Then make it a clear, public figure. Make it transparent.
Such a stupid move....
Dang and I just made this account too. Time to find a new instance... Any recommendations? How is lemmy.today?
This whole process has looked sus to me. And on top of that, I don't think voting by up/downvoting the post itself is a good way to call votes --- it means a minority can pass a rule without it being even seen by the majority (not sure that matters in this case). Voting should be done in a top-level comment.
Why do you think that?
I think I wasnt thinking clearly. sticked posts it doesn't matter what the up/downvote ratio is, its still gets pushed to all. COrrect?
Yes
People might not see the stickied post, for whatever reason. I'm mostly on X hours top, which hides the thread if older than X hours. Or someone could just not use Lemmy for a week. There is no notification or similar, no email alert.
I would argue that this would be the minority of users, not the majority.
Are there stats for how much voting eligible users there are, and how much of them actually vote on governance topics, or see (click on) governance topics?
No
Did you not read the rules for joining DB0 before you joined. They clearly state a full anti-zionist stance right there.
eyeroll yes. Do you think I support zionism?
No? I hope not, or joining DB0 would be a completely strange action. But you seem to think that their explicit rules on Zionism would not mean that they would act on a zionist-bar-like instance.
The vote was literally pinned instance-wide for a week and it passed with an overwhelming absolute majority, with a majority of comments (of various active and established users) calling for a defed instead of just community bans
I don't see a reason why you should. It's not like the vote didn't happen for good reason. There's no good reason to speak to genocide apologists.
Its this kind of bad-faith accusative argument that I hate most, from wherever it comes.
I don't see how it's bad faith to call an instance that has taken a stance in favor of a genocide "genocide apologist. They are doing genocide apologia. If you aren't a genocide apologist, you should leave the genocide apologist instance, same as leaving the nazi bar if you aren't a nazi.
I have not seen evidence that the plurality of that instance is in favor of genocide. Im open to evidence. and ofc maybe I'm just not observant enough. But i have not noticed the majority in favor.
Uh oh, if .ml is defending them db0 really is a lost cause.
Edit: Holy tankie brigade, Batman! They've really crawled out of the woodwork for this one!
I am not an ml user and I still defend db0. Now what?
.world user here, I am defending them. Are they a lost cause because they don't support mass murder or are they are lost cause because they support international justice?
Congratulations, you just earned yourself the "🤡" user tag!
I'm actually a Hexbear user. This is my alt.
People are going to assume this is a joke, lmao.
Yeah to clarify, I wasn't joking. Hexbear is my main instance.
sh.itjust.works
or go to piefed
Seeing your political inclinations you may wanna check out nazis.love, zionism.supporters, and netanyahu.net
You people are worse than reddit
Idk, the process looked fine to me. I can't say I agree with the arguments and the outcome, but it never looked like a bad process.
Up-/Downvotes on a pinned post doesn't change visibility for instance users.
You can come to feddit.org, we have mostly normal people instead of armchair internet warriors lol
True! discuss.tchncs.de is also pretty nice. We have a few more communities that feddit has defederated (for good reason, though, not everyone wants pr0n in their main feed :D).
in a just, abolitionists society that doesn't believe in the carceral system or death penalty so called "shunning" is a powerful thing. someone does something cruel that the community finds irredeemable? state the facts of what they did as publicly as possible so everyone knows and then shun them. let them either change their ways out of survival or parish while clinging to their bigotry and hatred. it's the only solution that i've found.
Why would you argue for individualist self-reform instead of collective re-education of crime?
the shun is collective. the re-education is something the person being shunned must participate in as part of the collective in order to no longer be shunned
Well what you're bringing up now is a very nuanced discussion. nuanced and possibly even subjective.
but my take, reeducation as a concept surely doesn't remind me of anything ethical in real world history. it also still reminds me of a carceral system, just a differently short-sighted one. i can't imagine a crime befitting of reeducation either, i mean let's talk about bigotry for instance. how far do you go trying to avoid shunning a bigot before you're just doing them the favour of giving them people to abuse? how would you teach a bigot out of bigotry, in this scenario they're already living in a world without the systems that cultivate an environment of bigotry yet they persist. they're beyond help as far as i'm concerned. also, some crime happens out of necessity because of being left behind by capitalism.
i at least don't think crimes against humanity are worthy of mercy of any sort.
Very cool of dbzer0.
lemmy.ml has multiple posts today about how everyone who disagrees with them is nazi or pedophiles.
such 'open-minded' types they are.
When I was new to Lemmy, I wanted to get memes, and the migration tool suggested the memes on lemmy.ml. It didn't take long before my first comment disagreeing with some tankie over USSR and chinese communism got removed for "Civility". It was a normal, non-insulting comment in expectance of a normal conversation.
You cannot criticise China's treatment of the Uyghurs without getting your comments removed and almost everyone with a .ml-account I've encountered denied the crimes and genocides of USSR, the Russian Federation and China, and this denial is enforced by mods and admins.
I'm really wondering what db0-admins think about defeserating lemmy.ml though.
they issue is that the lemmy.ml is the lemmy devs instance... and the devs are tankies themselves.
A lot of people don't use lemmy specifically because of the devs politics. and are on other platforms like piefed.
Personally I don't condemn products because of the actions/beliefs of their creators, former or present. I don't practice guilt/shame by association and I think doing so is incredibly toxic behavior. But I'm zionist scum for owning a Soda Stream anyway or something. Probably also for the fact I socialize/date jewish people and israelis regularly in my life.
No one outside the alt right would judge you for dating a jewish person or an israeli person, why did you feel the need to make this strawman? Do you have experience with being judged for dating zionists and feel the need to make their objection less palatable?
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"Rules are important! I’m a good German, I follow the rules." -German soldier in the 1940s
Are you talking about this one? 🤔
Link to the post
Edit: and this one apparently:
Link to the post
Poor nazi and billionaire-pedofiles, how dare users post this.
"You're a Nazi."
"You're a Nazi."
"You're a Nazi."
"Kill all Nazis."
Maybe if you stopped calling everyone you disagreed with a Nazi they wouldn't take offense when you advocate murdering them.
Meanwhile Zionists perpetuate real violence on real people by the hundreds of thousands. God forbid people online be mad at them.
And what does that have to do with people removing peoples posts calling for more violence?
Because Palestinians have the legal right under UN law to struggle against their occupiers by any means necessary, including armed struggle, while Israel, as an occupier, has no right to “self defense.”
- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zionism_as_settler_colonialism
- Philosophy prof. Hans-Georg Moeller: 📺 Guilt Pride: A German Vanity Project Conquering the World
https://feddit.org/comment/11617986
You know that was hasbara, right? Previously:
The people are calling for Palestinian self-defense against the apartheid state intent on their genocide. The two aren't comparable forms of violence.
There is a difference between calling for self-defense, calling for killings and supporting Hamas killing civilians.
The users here have even less critical thinking ability than Reddit, and I didn't think that were possible. More than one thing can be bad at the same time, but apparently you have to pick teams here and then call for death to the other team. Lemmy is a fucking parody now.
https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/gruesome-story-hannah-duston-american-colonist-whose-slaying-indians-made-her-folk-hero-180968721/
please note the similarities to pissrahelli hasbara and indigenous resistance in palestine.
That isn't how I'm seeing any of this.
Well, everyone is entitled to their own opinion. Whether they are grounded in reality is another matter. Every case of "Zionist censorship" listed in the dbzer0 post boils down to one of their members calling to kill the other side or calling someone Zionist because they don't support killing the other side.
I'm just looking at what is here. Not the drama on a instance I barely notice.
So you are commenting on a post about a post you didn't even read?
Don't be butthurt but I really don't care about the drama. Drama gets blocked here and I've seen plenty dodgy stuff from both instances. No saints on either side.
Well, I wouldn't mind if then you didn't criticize my take on a situation you didn't even try to comprehend.
Oh, yeah, "They removed my comment where I'm just an asshole and telling people to kill themselves, they are such zionists 😭"
The fuck is wrong with you guys?
The regular: too much internet, not enough grass being touched.
"Rules are important! I’m a good German, I follow the rules." -German soldier in the 1940s
Cool non-answer.
What part of civility rules typical across lemmy such as dbzer0's own
allows exceptions for unhinged promotion of violence against commenters whom we unreasonably allege or "bad-jacket" as Zionist?
Uncivil denunciations of Zionism are uncivil; therefore, moderators enforcing civility must prosecute.
No evidence was given the moderators penalize civil denunciations of Zionism.
Enforcing civility doesn't imply Zionism.
This is basic logic.
Denying basic logic implies staggering stupidity or dishonesty.
Dbzer0 civility rules aim to protect marginalized people from harassment. feddit.org's are being deployed to protect Zionism from criticism while tone-policing Palestinians and their allies. These aren't the same thing just because they both use the word 'civility.'
feddit isn't exactly enforcing civility neutrally. They're silencing anti-Zionism while treating Zionist positions as the default that deserves civil engagement. That's a political choice with the fig leaf of 'just following
ordersthe law', hardly 'basic logic'. But thanks for explaining to a silly girl like meAside from the fact that following the law should be an understandable concession to wanting your instance to continue existing:
I don't think I've seen any Anti-Palestine sentiment there. I'm also pretty sure most of us are on the same page about Zionism. This dispute is about the way that we express it, which is being framed as defending it and compared to actively perpetrating genocide.
There is a significant difference between following laws about hatespeech and following orders to actually murder people. Erasing all nuance doesn't help the actual discourse about what we all agree is systematic genocide against the Palestinian people.
Yeah, the good old "You are a Nazi for following rules"-thing. Because everyone who follows rules does so indly, except for oneself.
How would you categorize the community rules "Be nice to each other", "Don't insult each other" and "Don't call for violence"? Just or unjust, dair or unfair, sensible or dumb, expedient or not?
How would you categorize the feddit.org admin using a snark comm to get people to send DM harrassment to users who upvoted the feddit.org defederation thread?
is that 'being nice'?
I followed your link. It shows a comment you made, yet with another link to a comment by Emopunker@feddit.org. And you claim that they harass people. The comment by Emopunker shows a screenshot where three usernames are listed that share similarities. Emopunker says that they have the suspicion that the shown users are the same person with alt accounts.
In conclusion: I wonder whether you forgot to attach some context, because based on this alone I don't see anything that support your claims.
Why the whataboutism? Please answer my question and do not answer with whataboutism or the discussion is over.
Easy: unjust, unfair, dumb.
Nazis easily pretend to be the nice people following the rules and if you get angry you're the bad one. Don't be nice to Nazis. Yell at them, insult them, punch them. Enforcing laws to protect oppressors is nothing more than protecting oppressors. "The only legitimate violence is state violence" and all that propaganda.
The Nazis are the ones breaking the "be nice" rule in the first place, they just do it while speaking nicely, they talk about enforcing rules and protecting order, but somehow they always dodge the question of how many people their order is killing. That's not being nice. The rule is only there to forbid you for fighting back.
If you think that the "be nice" rule should punish calls to take down Israel or contest german support for the genocide, but not punish that same support for the genocide because it's nice and polite... You're just protecting the genocide. It doesn't matter if anti-genocide comments are not nice enough for you - they shouldn't have to be nice. Especially not when the German government literally makes it illegal to denounce Israel, even nicely.
A "be nice" rule is bad when there's another rule that says it's illegal to denounce genocide.
The only issue with defederation from the ZioNazi bar is that I can't see if they're crying in here.
You could always open feddit.org in a private window to check on them if you wanted. I checked recently and they seemed pretty unaware of it even happening. My guess is that they'll be seething when they find out.
You are the one who initiated the vote, right?
Shouldn't it be obvious I'm not? Read the post again:
I know there is a lot of desire by people unhappy with the outcome to scapegoat me as personally responsible (and take out their anger on me personally) but this is a community effort and would've likely happened with or without me.
source
One user and you are very active promoting the defederation.
Wasn't me who asked. I have been very strongly in favor of it though, guilty as charged. I will not shy away from that.
Again. I know people wish to scapegoat me and blame me for this (up to and including harassment). Like I said this would've happened with or without me.
Okay, next question. Why don't you answer me the last simple question and instead report me? I don't think that's harassment when you where asked about their role in the whole thing, especially when you've been so actively involved in it.
Okay, i believe you, but why are you promoting the defederation and then come to feddit.org to watch what happens there?
Edit: typo
From what I get, most of us are just relieved. The moderation team should definitely pop the champagne today, because there's a lot less work to do from now on. 🍾
If that is the case it doesn't make sense why Feddit had such a strong and hostile reaction to the existence and progress of the vote thread.
Most people didn't even notice such a vote was happening until today, when it spilled over to lemmy.world.
A discussion topic about it on Feddit was only created six hours ago and most people in there are like "Oh no! Anyway...".
Seems more like you want people to be furious. We can all wish for something, but that doesn't mean it'll actually happen.
I'm just making the observation that a lot of feddit users went into the thread and were pissed off about it happening, plus the fact that I got harassed persistently throughout the course of the vote. Those aren't things that happen when people aren't pissed.
Ah Shit, here we go again.
"I was just obeying the German laws" was not a credible defense in the Nürnberg trials, why are you repeating the same logic as the Nazis?
You know that "Anschuldigungen" aka. allegations can turn out to be true, right?? 🤯🤯
Also they seem like good little Germans for enthusiastically following orders pre-emptively and overinterpreting them 🫡🫡🫡
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You should read up on the position of germany before making dumb posts like this https://www.auswaertiges-amt.de/en/aussenpolitik/regionaleschwerpunkte/nahermittlererosten/middleeastconflict-228366
Thry send weapons to israel to maintain the occupation and continue the genocide
Wow, Germany sent A STRONGLY WORDED LETTER?? Damn, how did the genocide not stop immediately? Oh wait, they still maintain full diplomatic and economic relations with the genocidal Zionist entity, and have done no effort to ban Zionist and far-right media after proving that under German law there are provisions to ban media (as was done with Russian media).
They even gave them a finger wag! Israel is really brave to stand strong against such antisemitism! /s
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Oh nice meeting a Zionist apologist who I had already tagged "Evroshitlib 🤡", posting apologia for a settler-colonialist project. The Zionist entity has no right to exist. Period.
So no negotiations and no two-state solution then? What do you want?
You’re right, the Jews should have negotiated their way out of Auschwitz-Birkenau. Surely a reasonable deal could have been made with the Nazi génocidaires.
Whataboutism, nice. But surely starting another war was the only reasonable choice for hamas..
This is Holocaust exceptionalism. It is a trivialization of the slow, grinding genocide that Israel has been prosecuting for the last eighty years.
The great majority of Gazans were born in and have lived their entire lives in that open-air prison, that ghetto, their parents having been condemned there, many after their homes were stolen in the Nakba ethnic cleansing campaign. All Palestinians in Israel have lived under apartheid, settler-colonial rule their entire lives, in their own land, under military occupation.
Your whataboutism thought-terminating cliché is in bad faith.
Citations Needed podcast: Whataboutism - The Media's Favorite Rhetorical Shield Against Criticism of US Policy
Ben Burgis at Current Affairs: Is “Whataboutism” Always a Bad Thing?
Don't bother engaging with the troll, they are clearly not arguing in good faith.
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Echo chambers make you stupid.
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Well there are many examples but yes.
Guilt by association is still stupid even if you come up with a different analogy for it.
Like people do with thr ml users?
Yeah I would agree with that. However there are a number of ml users who are very deserving of that treatment based on their individual behavior. But insofar as that's used against other random users on the same instance it's probably not appropriate.
Same with feddit.org users
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Depends completely on the impacts of that decision. Zionism is the predominant viewpoint in my country, so if I were to refuse to ever be around them, I would be a complete shut in, which would be counter-productive to my larger political goals. Which include defeating Zionism.
But I don't believe it's true that this instance is full of zionists/nazis. The accusation seems to be that there are some users on it who are zionists.
To be clear, the accusation is that the mod team is Zionist, and that they consistently moderate all anti-Zionist content.
It's a Zionist bar not just because there's a few Zionists, but because the bar owner keeps kicking out the people who cause a ruckus with the Zionists.
OK, if that's true then I what I'm saying here doesn't apply.
Which is why db0 defederated from the Zionazi echo chamber.
What would be the point of federating with an instance which simply bans anti-Zionism? There is no way to convince feddit users since their mods enforce the German Zionist viewpoint.
Another user mentioned that feddit.org may have been consistently censoring anti-Zionist voices. If that's true it would make this a lot more reasonable in my view. However the post doesn't seem to explicitly make this claim, so I am curious if it's true. It left me with the impression that they were defederating mainly due to the presence of some Zionist users on the instance, which seems a very excessive response when the ability to ban individual users exists.
Dude, how can you be any more based
That's why I left. Its such a weird authoritarian way of dealing with stuff. Just ban everything and everyone you don't agree with. Also make it a collective punishment while we're at it...
There was a vote for it though. Any user right now could open a vote to refederate.
Im sorry how is making an instance vote a "weird authoritarian way of dealing with stuff"? Or is authoritarism when someone does something you dont agree with?
Go to their matrix channels, they're throwing around ACAB, generalizing people and if you don't support nuking israel, you will be banned for supporting the genocide. There is no debate, there is no discussion its a hive that moves into a certain direction and if you don't you are an outcast. Words do still mean things and acting like you can't govern democratically and authoritarian at the same time makes no sense.
Also acting like every community on feddit.org is a genocide supporting shithole is just crazy. The fediverse lives from its interoperability across the knots. I am a grown ass adult, I don't need DB0 to make the moral decision for me with whom I can interact and with whom I can not. What I think is quite ironic, is the fact that even though the instance is "anarchistic", everyone is licking the boots of the governing authority pretty good. I guess you either die a hero or live long enough to become a power tripping bastard yourself.
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The issue starts beforehand. It's easy to get an instance vote to agree with you if you ban and insult everybody on your instance who is not agreeing with you. That works exactly like those voter registration purges the Trump admin is doing.
Except they are not banning "everybody on [their] instance who is not agreeing with [them]", they are banning Zionazis and their symps.
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Thanks for linking that, that proves my point. If you have banned all "pro-zionist users" (whatever that is), it is no surprise that the next vote for banning a "pro-zionist instance" will also go succeed. Let's have another vote in a few weeks proposing to ban all users who were against banning that "pro-zionist instance"! Democracy at work!
It's a good thing to ban Zionists, actually. Support for genocidal settler-colonialism is bad.
What if instead of republicans day dreaming about what a vote would look like without women's suffrage
We imagine what democracy would look like if we didn't allow fascists to vote
"These two are the same thing"
Sure, I don't want to share space with people who want to welcome Zionazis.
What a fascist take. Everyone who's not for us is against us.
That's literally the best and fairest way to deal with that kind of stuff here. No risky permissivity, no manhunts / withchunts, no putting the onus on other people. db0 as an instance is weird for a lot of thigs, but honestly, compared to the rest of the world, not on that.
It's authoritarian to do direct democracy? OK then, I guess words mean nothing anymore.
The vote itself is not. This is not just about this single vote.
What is it about then?
The answers to https://mander.xyz/comment/25351806 address this pretty nicely.
They were specific about what they didn't agree with: Authoritarianism.
And if they don't want to tolerate guests from an instance that allows Zionism, then good. Any feddit.org members who think their admins' permissiveness is tolerable are complicit in the promotion of Zionism, even if they aren't intentionally complicit. Yes, hanging around with pro-genocide people should earn punishment, such as ostracization until they stop hanging around pro-genocide people. It's a social media account on the Fediverse, switching isn't difficult.
We did the same thing to Wolfballs, until their admin closed the instance because it was filled with literal neo-Nazis calling the admin a 'race-traitor'. Tolerating every belief is utopian, pointless and self-destructive.
Basically, when you tolerate the intolerant, tolerance dies. You need social rules to maintain the order, that means some beliefs need to be culled by kicking out or silencing those who are dangerous.
I don't particularly love db0 as a mainly hexbear user, but this is ridiculous. They did an absolutely gorgeous move by democratically voting to defed from Zionist instances, and you call that authoritarian. Defense against fascists is not authoritarian, it's literally the opposite.
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Would you allow nazism in the fediverse?
If we don't allow Nazis because they are hateful and violent, why should we allow hateful and violent communists/socialists/anarchists?
Is it the hate and violence we should ban? Why is a Nazi calling to kill non-whites radically worse than a communist calling for the death of non-communists? Both simple think violence and hate is perfectly justified over differences, real or perceived.
And some of us libtard facists think the idea of killing people over any differences, is what is stupid and wrong, no matter what your identity, ideology or belief.
We shouldn't allow people defending morally wrong stuffs that goes to all the ideological spectrum.Now answer the question would you allow supremacist and genocidal ideologies in the platforms you use?
Yeah because I'm centrist and according to lemmy nutbags I'm already genocidal supremacist by proxy, because to them any ideology outside of marxism-leninism is inherently genocidal or something.
Nor am I naive or arrogant enough to believe I am the singular person who should determine what 'genocidal' means. There are UN organizations for that.
Stop deflecting. Would you allow supermasist ideologies like nazism? If no why do you oppose censoring zionism the supermasist ideology behind israel colonization of Palestine
Well I don't think Nazism is one single thing dude. Not all Nazis are the same and think the same things. Every ideology has internal debates and various camps. It all depends on the specifics, which is why I would rather deal with it user by user and judge users for their actions, not their ideologies/beliefs. I also understand the concept of context. Is a community that is making fun of Nazis by using their slogans, promoting Nazism? A lot of people certainly could not draw the distinction. What about a community that wants to talk about Nazism in a historical context? Is that promoting genocide?
You call it 'deflection' I called it being reasonable and not making massive generalizations. Nazism and Zionism are not One Big Thing That is Evil. Lots of people, yourself include, probably have beliefs that are in agreement with several aspects of them, and disagree with others. My beef isn't with an ideology, it's with calls to violence, no matter what ideology they are coming from. And lots and lots of people from various ideologies call for violence and perpetuate hate and rage. I see a buttload of it coming from lemmy leftists of various self-identified flavors. If I am going to assume Nazis are evil and bad them for their violent ideology, then I've got to basically ban communists/socialists/anarchists too, because by your logic both are equivalently evil.
But the main disagreement we have here is that you think ideologies are the problem. I don't. I think people are the problem. If a particular insane of 'Nazis' has self identified and organized itself around violence and hate, sure I'd ban them. But there are tons of contexts in which discussion of Nazis and their beliefs would be totally permissible and admirable. I myself have done various history projects on the KKK and supremacy and papers on the ideology in my academic career. Am I therefore promoting or believing in Nazi ideology?
In a professional context, like say legit hate groups being investigated by FBI or the press, what is targeted is the actions of the group and the individuals therein. That's what I'm interested in policing, not thought or discussion.
It's not weird, its' just that this is how cowards and aspiring despots deal with things. You don't address them, or let them be seen/heard, you silence them or shut them out. You certainly don't allow dialogue that might allow for understanding... we can't have that.
Ironically one of the biggest draws for me, to reddit in the early days, and in the fediverse two years ago, was the notion that people can have differenting opinions and exchange them with civility and learn from each other. But I'm a big gay cishet transexual anti-zionist nazi pedo fascist centrist idiot, or so lemmy.ml users has been telling me the past few months.
They really lost the plot when they joined the tankie triad.
How can it be a triad if there are 4 🤓
dont send me selfies
I don't wear glasses, actually.
I think this is a stupid move, but it shows the shitty mindset, that evolved on db0. Bye!
The shitty mindset of checks notes not wanting Zionist fascists in a queer-friendly online space.
Showing your true colours here.
Notice how the ragebait, communication destroying comments and got'chas are coming from a handful of users in this thread (Cowbee, Riverside, etc.)
Ask yourself why they would want to separate the left and who benefits from that.
Edit: ah and like clockwork, the "I now want to communicate reasonably" spiel. Not falling for that one.
Wow seems like all the bad actors got caught by this.
Notice how the criticisms are based on a fundamental lie: that feddit.org is a zionist instance. Without that lie all of the agitators "arguments" crumble to the sad leftist-dividing dust that they are.
Calling for death to nations (and their civilians) is a call for genocide. I hope non-extremists can see that.
Also, as a tip: don't answer the trolls and agitators. Leave them hanging, screaming into the wind.
If you allow people defending a supermasist ideology like zionism than you are a zionist bar simple as that
Defending pissrael is zionism. Anything short of "Death to pissrael" is zionism. Sorry I don't make the rules, I merely enforce them.
The soyjack "I was just following orders" vs the chad
cops under a DotB vs cops under a DotP
Can you elaborate on how I'm doing "ragebait" or posting "communicatuon destroying comments and got'chas?" I oppose Zionism, I think that's fairly clear.
Response to your edit: I have always done my best to communicate reasonably. What I find happening frequently is when the rare person claims I am being dishonest or not genuine, upon confrontation they simply ignore what I have to say, or answer in a snide half-response like this one.
Response to yet another edit:
Feddit.org harbors Zionism at the admin-level. The criticisms are indeed based on the idea that Feddit.org is a Zionist bar, and simply calling that a lie doesn't debunk that.
Equating the state of Israel and its right to exist with preventing genocide of Israelis is Zionism. Calling us trolls, and saying we are doing "ragebait" and "got'chas" while you quite literally are doing that right here and now is peak hypocricy.
You are literally the most reasonable communicator on the fediverse, lmao.
Thanks! What's funny is I've seen these "edit responses" before, people don't expect to be questioned on statements they make about others by the people in question, I suppose.
It's pretty gross behavior.
Yep, I agree.
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Zionists are not on the left
Death to America
You're not a leftist.
"They're not zionist, they just defend Israel's right to exist."
They are zionists and so are you. You're also a dishonest coward who replies to people through edits and hopes they don't notice. Death to "Israel" and death to the Federal Republic of Germany.
Edit:
You are literally answering me, lmao. Well, not really, you're actually replying to things I didn't say.
Well, I think this is where the "Nazi Bar" metaphor comes into play. I think its defensible for db0 to clearly say, and they had a debate, provided evidence, etc.., that feddit.org clearly has a Zionist problem. We could argue with their process, evidence etc.. but we can't disagree that they did have* a process, *provided evidence, etc..
I mean isn't that the point? Feddit is turning a blind eye to this when it comes from a specific, narrow ideological group. The argument being made is that Feddit is either defending or turning a blind eye to one specific group of people who are ideological advocates for genocide because they do it on behalf of Israel.
And to be clear and I've said this elsewhere. I don't think you leave a Nazi (in this metaphor, Zionists) bar to the Nazis. If you find out that a group of Nazi's walked into the bar you are in, you collect your group of friends at your table, and you walk over and start a fight. Don't give them an inch.
I think the argument here is that if you don't want to be known as a instance supporting genocide and fascism, you have some work to do.
That's pretty weak and other instances shouldn't look up to them for this.
Let people say, and see, what they want.
A handful of examples shown and then a public vote for defederation seems wild and loose to me.
The collateral damage from this is a mix of unwanted drama (see this post) and a whole bunch of users cut off from another that did nothing wrong.
Lemmy is still young and small. These spats only hurt it's community and image.
That's not true. A lot of users have spoken out against defederation. Just look at the top comments here. There is no way you can speak of a “consensus” as the admin of dbzer0 claims.
It's completely ridiculous to accuse feddit.org of being Zionist because particularly militant anti-Zionist forms (“Death to Israel”) are not allowed there. This line of argument is inconclusive and makes the classic conversion fallacy. But more importantly, most people on feddit.org are very critical of Israel. For example, I never read that anyone seriously denies that Israel is committing genocide in Gaza. Even if it did happen, it would be criticized immediately. They probably just don't do so with the radicalism that is represented on dbzer0. Instead of concluding that there is at least a large overlap here, that the people on feddit.org are not only not allies, but in fact enemies (“fascists”), is so ridiculous that I can hardly believe that this is being advocated by adults. Yes, there have always been these stupid left-wing purity contests. But I think this reaches a new level of stupidity here.
I can't stand this anymore. There are actual fascists who want to destroy both the users of feddit.org and dbzer0. They won't care how purely anti-Zionist the person in question is. They'll hang us all equally if they get the chance. But instead of uniting, we are creating new hostilities between us.
It's a shame most people on the internet don't recognize how rhetoric like this causes more harm than good.
"If you don't support me in censoring my enemies, then you're just as bad as they are."
"I will fight for the right of my enemies to have free speech!", I proudly state as the fascist guards hand me a shovel and force me to dig my grave at gunpoint
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Supporting an supermasist colonial ideology should have no place in the fediverse
Exactly. That's why I don't support db0.
Db0 do not support zionism the supermasist ideology that resulted the occupation of Palestine
db0's leadership are libertarians cosplaying as anarchists the way ML's are fascists that cosplay as socialists/communists. They are anti-Zionist in this moment. But they still have shown sympathy for other authoritarian regimes and are very pro-AI.
I mean, if you're just gonna take their word that Feddit is a Zionist bar, you might wanna block MeanwhileonGrad, which they claim to be a nazi bar because it catalogues all the stupid shit they do.
Me when I just say random shit:
What they said is completely accurate.
[citation needed]
And pro-AI is as bad as genocide? Jesus Christ.
I don't have to take their world. I had enough interactions with feddit.org to know that it is a zionist bar
Just because you are anti russia and china doesn't mean you are a good person. The mod is a zionist that defend the zionism supermasist ideology making if as bad as pro russian and china people
you have always been on the furry instance so why does db0 care about you at all?
"Oh no, they defederated from Zionists, I hate that!" said nobody ever with the slightest knowledge of Zionism
Unfortunately, dbzer0 has not yet provided a consistent definition of Zionism, which is why they always resort to the broadest possible interpretation. As a result, it is essentially impossible to differentiate between the IDF and feddit.org (or at least their ideology), which is obviously stupid, but has the advantage of simplicity. One can simply throw the word around and everyone nods dutifully.
It is believing that the foreign jews had the right to come to Palestine, force a state on the local people which included jews then ethenically cleansing 850k of them. It is also when you reject a one state solution becsuse you believe it should always be a jewish state rather than a state with equal rights for everybody. What happen if after several centuries arab population of Israel bypass the jewish population?
The post title referenfes the "Nazi bar" problem. Not every feddit user is a raging Zionist, but not banning obviously Zionist users makes it a space not worth belonging to or interacting with. Zionism is a dangerous ideology and it should be kept away from as many people as possible.
What do you consider to be an example of “obvious Zionism” on feddit?
Plenty of modlog evidence in the db0 post to discuss defedding:
Calling Hamas "terrorists" is Zionist propaganda.
What's wrong with calling Hamas terrorists? They have randomly but deliberately killed innocent people. How else would you describe that?
This comment section is a shit show. Be respectful of each other next time please. Locked.
How to we call a tankie triad when it is actually four? dbz0 is following ml, hexbear and lemmygrad for a longer time now.
I thought this was a joke when I read the first sentence, then I realized you were serious. LMAO
Liberals calling anarchists tankies would be funny if it weren't such a damning statement on their own political literacy. I guess it is a little funny, but still…
Tankie is when you are left to Dick Chaney's children for such people.
Piefed going hard to bat for Zionists again.
What if I told you my instance didn't conduct a check of political attitude when joining?
Yes, exactly, allowing Zionists in your platform is bad
What if I told you that your instance has a literal social credit score
So you did not pass the no-Zionists check on other instances and had to join an instance without it
They're on piefed so it's just hidden/inherent to the code
Tankie is when you don't support genocidal imperialism.
It's sad to see dbzer0 slowly creeping towards authoritarianism. This is exactly the kind of reason I couoldn't entertain making it my primary instance unfortunately.
It's kind of a weird argument considering lemmy.world has also blocked other instances, and (correct me if I'm wrong) without a vote on it.
Hell world wouldn't even punish a mod for rule breaking behavior
You are indeed correct. Lemmy.world is less democratic than dbzer0.
.world was already bad, doesn't stop me from being disappointed when one of the instances I liked more gets worse.
Yet another example of why the abstract concept of "authoritarianism" is useless. In this case, the people of dbzer0 decided democratically to wield their authority to defederate from an instance with an explicit Zionist problem. It isn't the defederation that's the problem in the abstract, or the authority, it's the fact that this authority was used against Zionists.
Authority is exactly the problem. Who would've thought that somebody with an account on an anarchist instance has problems with other people telling them what they can and can't do?
Shocking, I know.
You're arguing against the people wielding their power against Zionists and in favor of Zionists being able to speak freely. You moved to an instance with stricter defederation, showing you don't care about defederation in the abstract, but what was being defederated.
Wow, is it really so hard to believe that I'm, you know, saying what I think?
.world happened to be my first fediverse account, dbzer0 came later. I've lots at this point, exactly because of instance defederation, but the idea of what db0 was doing seemed particularly interesting, hence my disappointment.
In any case I've nothing more to add here.
Hope you get a nice weekend, ciao.
I don't think it's particularly interesting that anarchists defederated from Zionists.
So all moderation is wrong? Also you seem to very clearly not understand what anarchism is beyond the infantile "tyranny of bedtime" surface.
No.
Sure sounds like you're against moderation. Or are you just a liar who only cares because it's about shunning Zionism.
slowly?
fuck dude, they've been speed running that shit for years.
You might be thinking about .ml instances. dbzer0 has been one of the most open instances. I'm just disappointed at the current trend.
Both .ml instances are extremely broadly federated. Grad is defederated by more instances, but nevertheless remains federated on their end, meaning Grad accounts see pretty much everything except a few instances.
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The post was open for the entire voting period. The voting period is over.
Its funny... regardless if its the Web of old, IRC channels, a real life small gardening commune (Kleingartenverein) or now here on the Fediverse - there will always be petty wars to be fought. Perhaps its part of the "human experience", who knows...
Time to defederate dbzer0?
Sounds like the worst thing you could do, better to limit these kinds of defederation wars instead of escalating them even further.
Oh no, how will dbzer0 survive without access to a constant supply of condescending Finnish cryptofascist opinions?