FOSSDLE PieFedjointhefediverse.net - Why was Lemmy removed from the list of fediverse alternatives?
submitted by teohhanhui
github.com/jointhefediverse-net/jointhefedivers…
jointhefediverse.net seems to be a commonly linked resource for directing people to join the Fediverse.
Curiously, it does not list Lemmy under the list of Reddit alternatives. Their GitHub README explains why.
Previous relevant discussion: https://lemmy.ml/post/78808
That feels like complaints about lemmy.ml specifically more than Lemmy as a software. There's a few instances that defederate lemmy.ml out there.
They can do whatever shit they want with their instance and believe whatever they want. The software they make provably doesn't have any more biases than any other software. As long as that's the case, I'm fine.
Maybe there's something in the codebase that sends all our data to North Korea... who knows.
We do, because it’s open source
Have you read all the code though? Everyone assumes that somebody else will read every single file of the source code, and understand it all. Malicious code can be obfuscated.
Personally, no. However the technical lead of our instance has, and in fact wrote and debugged some of it.
Next time, do something like suggesting that vaccines don't work, to entertain me.
I'm not raising a conspiracy theory point, I'm raising what is surely a valid point: everybody assumes that *someone else* will read all of the source code and understand it all.
Codebases are large, and malicious code can be obfuscated. Hopefully Lemmy's code is fine, but I definitely don't know for certain that it's completely clean. I just hope that it is.
How much effort do you think Meta, Twitter, and Reddit put into getting open social media people to fight against themselves?
Very little
it's complaints about the developer (which are valid) who also runs lemmy.ml.
Yeah, but it’s guilt by association. Think about how X is now. Its owner is an asshole, and that hurts the platform regardless of how many cool people use it.
X is under total control of that person. As long as the lemmy source adheres to fediverse principles, this developer can believe whatever they want and run their instance however they want, and no one else has to care. If his beliefs starts affecting the lemmy source, it's always an option to fork.
If you exclude a branch of the fediverse because of one bad instance, you're missing the point of the fediverse.
And you’re missing the point of my point.
If people who don’t already know how lemmy is run, are curious and read that shit and think the owner/operator of lemmy is a huge douchebag tankie that deletes/bans everything he doesn’t like… it bodes poorly for new people coming to lemmy.
So therefore- the rest of us are guilty as a result of association with the aforementioned douchebag.
Could you, like, maybe post the explanation we're supposed to be discussing for context instead of making us go search for it?
Why was Lemmy removed from the list of fediverse alternatives?
Lemmy was removed due to:
Keep in mind that software is by no means "neutral". The people who make it make decisions about how it works based on their beliefs and goals. That's why, for example, you can't quote posts on Mastodon (at least for now), but you can do so on other fediverse platforms.
God damn it, of all the garbage people to quote, why did it have to be LaRouche
Thanks! Damn, maybe I should move to Mbin. Anyone know if there's a good mobile client for it?
!interstellar@kbin.earth
I'll have to check that out, thanks!
Sold! Mbin > Lemmy on interface alone
I checked it out and am sold on the app as well as Mbin lol
Wow that change is from June 2023.
Yes, that's quite old, not sure why OP is bringing this up now.
Most of the people here know about the Lemmy devs political stances. Quite a few people are waiting for Piefed and Mbin to catch up. Nothing new to see here.
I don't know. I just came across it yesterday, and I thought it'd be something interesting to share.
It was explained in the post's body actually:
Seeing as I've only started using Lemmy less than a month ago, I've only just very recently started realizing that.
It's okay, I see your account is quite new, so no worries.
As I said, those issues are known, you can have a look at !yepowertrippinbastards@lemmy.dbzer0.com for posts complaining about power tripping mods, be it lemmy.ml or elsewhere.
The key takeaway is that even with its flaws, Lemmy is the biggest Reddit alternative by far (Discuit has less than 200 weekly active posters, Lemmy has 42000). If there would have been a better alternative people would probably have moved there, but there wasn't (and still isn't) any, so here we are
This was like me months ago. A lot of people here take the mentality of "Well *I* know about it, so it *MUST* be common knowledge that everybody knows!"
Completely forgetting that there are 8 billion people on the planet, and something like 65k people on lemmy. Statistically speaking, this means basically nobody in the entire planet knows about lemmy, or the issues with lemmy.ml.
So for every NEW user, this is ALWAYS new info. It's not like facebook where I don't have an account, but already know zuck's a massive piece of shit.
The question is more "how many people on Lemmy know about the ml political stance"
Posts like this (https://feddit.org/post/3912054) with 205 comments show that most of the people are usually aware.
For new joiners, there is a post on !newtolemmy@lemmy.ca about this.
FWIW: I used join-lemmy.org and found lemmy.ml, submitted my registration, but then checked on Wikipedia and it says lemmy.world is the largest instance, so I wanted to cancel my registration for lemmy.ml (there's no such feature according to the admin). Anyway, that's how I ended up here on lemmy.world 😆
Did not notice any of the political leanings until just a few days ago, so it's definitely not obvious unless you look deeper into things.
I appreciate you posting it
Block .ml
Block me
Who cares how others use Lemmy? I don't. Feel free to make another feud post this week. Stick it to us champ!
I do, because I would like Lemmy to reach 100k monthly active users, so that other posters can join communities I keep alive. Lemmy.ml reputation is detrimental to this.
On the other hand, I respect the Lemmy devs as developers, just not as admins.
The reasoning they give is ludicrous. That's idiotic as saying because someone put up a pedophile website, Apache is the devil. Even if Apache were built by NAMBLA, if it's opensource and doesn't randomly insert pictures of naked kids into your website, how does the developer matter to the product?
If Nambla owned Apache, I think Apache should be taken from Nambla.
"I'm gonna stop using GNU/Linux because I don't like Richard Stallman"
It's valid to dislike the devs (I disagree, I've found them nothing but courteous, and have read their posts with interest), but it's ridiculous to exclude their software from this list.
It has mbin and piefed on the list, so it’s not harming the network at all. If anything it’s more healthy with more platforms rather than just ml and world. It’s one site directing people to the fedi, I’m not butthurt about it
This is so stupid. Did everyone stop using ballpoint pens because the inventor was a nazi? No.
but... I wouldn't drive a Tesla because of Elon Musk.
But by buying a tesla youre giving elon money and promoting his product which is much more closely tied to his views than lemmy is to the devs views.
Would you drive a Ford? Because you should read up on Henry Ford’s beliefs if so.
How about BMW? Wanna talk about their history? Actually, give me a car company you like, and we’ll just dig into that one.
I wouldn’t drive a Tesla because they’re shitty cars.
At least one people involved with the ballpoint pen was Jewish, so there's that.
Ballpoint pens don't spread nazi propaganda. I don't know where you thought this was going.
Have you used a pen before? They definitely can spread propaganda...
Well, at least pens don't have a proprietary algorithm by said nazi to make it not function when you want to write something that is not nazi propaganda, unlike things like Twitter, where the far-right is being boosted.
Don't give them ideas.
All valid concerns.
What is the issue with user privacy? These do not sound like valid concerns to me.
This is all quite old drama, and the issue itself is fixed now, but at one point someone kicked off about how if you uploaded a picture to Lemmy, there was no easy way to delete it (you could delete your post, but the image would still be there at whatever URL was created for it, and it wasn't even that easy for admins to find and remove it) - so I'm guessing that it stems from that.
Its older than that, and still ongoing. The devs doubled down on how GDPR (and user data privacy rights in general) do not matter to them
Source? I did a cursory search for "GDPR" on the GitHub issues and can't find anything like that.
Anyway, this seems to be their more recent stance:
https://github.com/LemmyNet/lemmy/issues/4540#issuecomment-2018920191
I dont know what you mean. If you search for GDPR (including closed tickets) in both the Lemmy and lemmy-ui repos, you'll see lots of bugs that make running Lemmy illegal for instance admins.
Here's one particularly egregious example
https://github.com/LemmyNet/lemmy-ui/issues/2384#issuecomment-1978679289
That's pretty much it
Wait, what? Can you elaborate?
See the other comment
it's federated. It's the only way it can work. Everything still on that ist *must* suffer from the same thing. Federation means handing stuff to someone else. Once that's done, it's out of your hands forever.
That cant be the issue because the site is called joinfediverse and everything it lists is federated.
Correct but fedi is supposed to be the public forum of the future.
Social media worked the same... you handed your shit posts to faceberg or sundar the creep, do people think when they deleted their "creation" it was removed?
Yeah, seems like it's just how ActivityPub works / how federated networks are.
Recently came across this very interesting writeup: https://gitlab.com/spritely/ocappub/blob/master/README.org (via https://social.coop/@cwebber/113639985634239856)
No that cant be why they do not list lemmy. The other services there federate in the same way.
No, they're not.
Doesn't matter if you stay away from .ml.
Kind of valid, but open source and open license negates a lot of that.
You think anything else on the Fediverse is better? When you post something publicly, it's public. Doesn't really matter what the software does. If you don't have End to End encryption, it's not private.
And they are. They have delisted Lemmy as a recommendation.
It's really bad PR. I don't recommend Lemmy to people because of this shit.
If their servers delete content you want deleted, yes.
It's the case for Lemmy
https://github.com/LemmyNet/lemmy-ui/issues/2384#issuecomment-1978857727
Gotcha.
To me the first one is an instance problem (ml, hexbear?), and not a lemmy problem. It has looked like they've been trying to separate the two as much as possible.
But the Lemmy project and specific instances are not so easily separated. From the archived mastodon thread:
So yeah, newcomers are presented with a join-lemmy site that promotes Lemmygrad and Lemmy ML, both of which appear to be run by the Lemmy devs.
That pretty much makes it a Lemmy problem.
On what basis can anyone declare one instance to be the 'main' one? I've seen a number of people claim the same thing about .world, but none of them *need* to be considered the 'main' ones. The entire motivation for the creation of the fediverse is to allow segmentation.... I think people simply *want* to make it an issue because without these little cross-community spats things get boring.
I agree that ideally the concept of "main instances" is beside the point in a federated network. Let's call them "flagship" or "onboarding instances" then, the initial ones set up by developers as proof of concept that usually get the most traction by way of being open for registrations the longest.
I think it's disingenuous to classify the decision to omit Lemmy from a list of fediverse software as "a spat", though. Bringing it up again 1½ years later probably fits the bill better.
But lemmy.ml isn't the most active, nor does it host the most active communities - https://fedidb.org/software/lemmy - https://lemmyverse.net/communities?order=active_month
Unfortunately, .ml is a default instance and the main devs instance, what happens there reflects on all of us
Default where?
https://join-lemmy.org/
I don't see it on that page. Going to "See all servers" lists "lemmy.ml" at a random position in the list. Looking at "Join a server" and using "Generic" or "All topics" also lists it in a random position. Am I missing something?
It was made very clear from the start that .ml was not meant to be a 'default instance'.
Too bad for all of us that it is though.
How was it *default*? I've been here for years and in all that time, it was never default. It was one of the most popular, and the most widely shared, but that's not the same at all.
If anything is too bad, it's .world being so prominent.
Half this comm's activity is spreading FUD about the platform and being a gathering place for all the people developing their alternatives to huddle and advertise those.
But lemmy.ml isn't the most active, nor does it host the most active communities - https://fedidb.org/software/lemmy - https://lemmyverse.net/communities?order=active_month
To me, the only solution to this is to do a hard fork. Take the code (It's AGPL), rename it if Lemmy is trademarked, and encourage admins to use it and contributors to target it. Maybe start a non-profit or LLC while we're at it.
Good luck finding Rust devs interested in link aggregators. That fork would probably fall behind, and people would switch back to Lemmy as they keep delivering features.
Mbin and Piefed use more popular languages and haven't caught up yet
Instead of trying to fork, maybe we try and go the Gotosocial way and make a MVP smol version. Something that can house 10 or so users. People can spin up whatever they want.
Honestly what I wouldnt give for a reddit theme on mastodon that uses their hashtags as the communities themselves. That would be cool in my opinion.
To be honest, at this point forking the jointhefediverse website would probably be easier
This seems like the better idea and way easier lol.
Sublinks is doing a rewrite
The linked post given on the second point is a bit flimsy. It's basically saying that if you use evidence published by a person with shitty views, you must have them too. To me, that's absurd as claiming that referencing FBI statistics makes someone a federal agent.
I hate it when people try to gatekeep like this. I don't need to be handheld. If there's a Fediverse alternative to something and it mostly works, it should be on the website. Anything less is not useful at best.
Edit: I say this as someone who has historically criticized the behavior of the devs as well as multiple Lemmy communities BTW.
I agree 100% with this. The developers or the operators of lemmy.ml may be assholes, but the beauty of decentralization is I can simply not use their instance. I do not. Thus, while a warning label is necessary, I think more good is done by making people aware of the alternative to Reddit than by sweeping the whole thing under the rug.
As for user privacy, I'm not sure Lemmy is any worse than any other Fediverse app. There were a couple of bad things like being unable to delete a hosted image, but that has been fixed. Once again, warning label, not rug sweep.
I mean the person maintaining this site just chose to not recommend it themself based on valid concerns. Nothing is stopping you from looking into lemmy and using it anyways.
Well, since you've vocally criticised the developers and they haven't bothered changing their ways, wouldn't you agree they deserve to be gatekept?
On the other hand, it's not for you to decide the criteria for what is included on jointhefediverse's curated list. I personally think it is a perfectly reasonable judgement call they've made.
It's kind of a tradeoff. As much as I like Mbin, it's not at feature parity with Lemmy yet, having only one mobile app is probably a deal breaker to a lot of users.
People keep saying mbin is not good enough but I bang out hellva work on it.
What does it actually miss for this criticism to be valid?
I think it might help if you advertise it more too. I haven't heard of mbin in months and partially assumed it stopped existing
Posts not being marked as read and lack of app support.
No. In fact, I strongly dislike that whole attitude of 'do what I want or else I will cancel you'. I am not the arbiter of what is ultimately right and wrong and neither are you and neither is parent commenter.
I believe people have the right to make their own choice. And since Lemmy has significant user base and significant active discussion and thousands of communities, I think the users have the right to make that choice for themselves. Make them aware of the situation, make them aware of the potential downsides, make them aware that lemmy.ml is run by tankie assholes, maybe recommend some better instances, and let them choose for themselves.
That is why I like Lemmy and the fediverse as a concept. I can choose the instance that has the policies that I want. Among those policies is which other instances to defiederate from.
And yet you argue against the jointhefediverse curator's choice not to list whatever goes against their convictions?
As mentioned in another reply, Soapbox is an example of a Fediverse server software that often goes unmentioned because the developer is a giant MAGA hat. As the meme goes, they're the same picture.
Of course it's their choice. But I also think some people in some situations should recognize a broader responsibility. Because we get into a larger question of, what happens when the public square is privately owned?
With a website like joinfediverse, that domain becomes a primary resource for people looking to get into decentralized platforms. By not including something, the maintainer is not just making the choice for himself but for every new user who visits the site. That responsibility should be taken seriously and the choice not just made based on personal opinion.
Think of it this way, imagine I made a site called whoshouldIvotefor.com and it would ask you questions and then recommend a political candidate. Sounds like a good idea, right? Now what if I make it so the site always recommends a Republican candidate, and only justifies why the answers you gave to the questions indicate that vote? I'm certainly allowed to do that. Free speech and all. But it could be argued that I also have a responsibility to the voters who come to my site who don't realize it is biased, in that I am pushing my personal opinions on them and causing them to make a decision that they wouldn't have made if they had all the facts.
(Disclaimer- I'm not a Republican, I consider myself liberal-libertarian. I'm using that as an example.)
I am just saying that a site which sets itself up as an authoritative on ramp to the fediverse should try to be unbiased and not based on personal opinions of its editor.
No, I don't. If it's about instances I'd understand it a bit more, even though I wouldn't entirely agree with that either (I'm a free speech stan), but this is a page listing Fediverse alternative software. The software is fine and relatively untainted from the intentions of the Lemmy devs from what I can tell (although that was not originally the case). They deserved to be criticized, but not censored from Fediverse articles listing alternatives to big tech platforms.
It's not "censorship" when somebody decides to omit a software from a curated list over the developers' horrible takes. See also Soapbox.
Edited to add: Free speech does not obligate anybody to boost or acknowledge subjects that they disagree with.
They are suppressing information about the fediverse based on political views. They had it up and then they took it down. Please explain how this is not censorship. I don't know where people get the idea that censorship is an inherently negative thing.
Generally fair point. My issue though is that most people will just go to this website and won't consider other lists or websites, viewing this as the definitive list of Fediverse alternatives. Someone not putting someone's software on their website isn't technically censorship, true (this is the other coin of free speech), it does effectively censor Lemmy from the general conversation about Fediverse alternatives.
Is that really what all this protest is over? Someone's 'horrible takes'?
How is this censorship though?
You can always start joinfediversefreespeechstan.io or whatever. The code is even available, no?
I could never understand american-style preference for "free speech" themed theatrics.
Because as the leading "Fediverse alternative" website, it essentially tells the viewer that Lemmy doesn't exist, which I think does a disservice to prospective Fediverse users.
But yes good point, anyone can make an alternative website, I think right wing people made like a fuckgab.com site back in the day to recommend Gab alternatives on the Fediverse.
Point 1 and 2 really need to be addressed.
It would be so much better if lemmy wasn't developed by genocide white-washing tankies.
https://piefed.social/ is catching up
Any way to migrate a self hosted lemmy instance to piefed?
No, it's not geared up for that. There's a platform called sublinks where the intention is to be initially compatible enough with Lemmy that it can be a drop-in replacement, but they haven't released anything yet.
And with their current pace, it seems likely they never will. There's been no major development on it for months as far as I can see.
Oh interesting, thanks for sharing!
Unfortunately migrating from one fediverse application to another on the same domain is actually basically impossible, due to the way ActivityPub works. It's very unfortunate.
We built this whole place from scratch 18 months ago. We can do it again, especially when Lemmy instances would still be around and help to redirect people to the Piefed instances.
just run both!
Python based: I was looking for that
Yeah, I don't expect it to scale well. Certainly not as well as Rust.
In terms of incoming federation, PieFed sites are dealing with as much activity as any general Lemmy instance. It's not happened yet, but I suppose it's possible that problems will become apparent if the amount of local users gets over a certain size. A limit on the amount of users per instance isn't necessarily a bad thing though (it's cheap, and hopefully easy enough, for someone to spin up another one).
Have you checked how muh software do you use that is enabled by capitalism?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SDF_Public_Access_Unix_System
wow that's interesting :D
SDF is pretty rad.
Yee
Excuse me?
Linux Foundation survives on Microsoft's financing. Firefox main source of income is Google's money. That's like pointing out that we breathe nitrogen. Yes, it is almost impossible to avoid capitalism because we live immersed in it as a society. But it's not an reason to stop pointing it out and trying to find more ethical and sustainable alternatives.
You should ask it on lemmygrad.ml :D
I mean, it *would* be one way to get them stuck chasing their own tail on an endless task...
The links from the github in case anyone wants to learn more (in order of the list):
https://web.archive.org/web/20210901023138/https://mstdn.social/@feditips/106835057054633379
https://raddle.me/f/lobby/96713/heads-up-the-tankie-behind-lemmy-ml-got-banned-from-r
https://raddle.me/f/lobby/155371/warning-lemmy-doesn-t-care-about-your-privacy-everything-is
First link is completely unviewable for me on mobile, the entire thread is a chain of posts that say “Please don't use Lemmy :( Human rights, oppression” with a show more button that doesn’t work, and the original thread is gone. Could you(/someone) paste what it says? I’d try on desktop but our internet has been out since the fires started in LA
Entire thread, all from the same user:
Post 1
Please don't use Lemmy :( Human rights, oppression
Human rights mean a lot to me. I joined the Fediverse to make the world a nicer place. My efforts are pathetically small, but hopefully make at least a tiny difference.
I used to recommend Lemmy very strongly, thought the people who develop it were nice folks interested in making the world better too.
However, recent discussions with the developers has changed my mind completely.
I am very suspicious about their motivations now.
1/6
Post 2
Please don't use Lemmy :( Human rights, oppression
Lemmy's developers say "we are strictly against all forms of oppression (including genocide), and dont allow anything that promotes or supports oppression" and "We definitely are very staunchly against bigotry or persecution of minorities, and are strict about banning that".
This is difficult to fully reconcile with what actually happens on the developers' own instance, and those they feature.
2/6
Post 3
Please don't use Lemmy :( Human rights, oppression
The problem here isn't Lemmy's politics, but their attitude to threads about human rights violations.
On the face of it, the developers' main Lemmy instance has lots of uncontroversial general interest threads, but when you start digging on controversial topics a worrying pattern emerges.
The worrying posts are very reminiscent of the way certain churches have handled priest abuse claims: denial.
3/6
Post 4
Please don't use Lemmy :( Human rights, oppression
There's threads denyng the oppression of Uyghur muslims (this oppression has been well documented by NGOs, for example: https://www.amnesty.org.uk/actions/help-end-repression-uyghurs-china).
Other posts deny that North Korea is oppressive.
Meanwhile, another suggests celebrating Stalin's birthday as he was such a great guy.
(Incidentally, I have receipts, DM me if you want to see them for yourself.)
4/6
Post 5
Please don't use Lemmy :( Human rights, oppression
You get the picture.
These posts were on the main Lemmy instance, as featured on the official Lemmy website.
Over the past few days I have tried to engage with Lemmy about these posts in private, as I was sure it must be a misunderstanding.
However, Lemmy said that "none of the posts you linked are against our rules", and refused to even discuss the actual issues because "this format is not conducive to political disagreements".
5/6
Post 6
Please don't use Lemmy :( Human rights, oppression
I deeply regret ever having publicised Lemmy. I'm really sorry.
Don't use Lemmy.
For whatever my opinion is worth any more, I would now recommend that people cancel their donations to Lemmy, stay as far away from Lemmy as possible, and donate to another Fediverse project instead.
I was wondering whether to stay quiet, but it seemed better to speak up and say something
6/6
Post 7
Please don't use Lemmy :( Human rights, oppression
p.s. I put the wrong link for Amnesty, the Uyghur report is here:
https://www.amnesty.org/en/documents/asa17/4137/2021/ug/
Post 8
Please don't use Lemmy :( Human rights, oppression
p.p.s. Someone has pointed out that lemmy.ml (the official Lemmy instance) resolves to the same IP address as lemmygrad.ml (the instance that contains the most disturbing material).
Lemmy.ml also federates with lemmygrad, and the devs advertise lemmygrad on their "join lemmy" site.
Do the Lemmy developers themselves run the lemmygrad.ml site? (Its main logo is a tank, incidentally.)
Post 9
Please don't use Lemmy :( Human rights, oppression
p.p.p.s. There was an older "reddit for the Fediverse" project called Prismo which had some working instances at one point.
Perhaps someone could resurrect it, to provide an alternative to Lemmy?
https://gitlab.com/prismosuite/prismo
Thank you!
Sorry to hear
Thanks, fortunately I’m not in any evacuation zones, it’s just really bad air quality here
Wait wait.....what's that last one?
These concerns, and more, are why just today, during a conversation with some friends looking to get off traditional social media, I advised them to join pixelfed, peer tube, mastodon, and loops, but suggested they strictly avoid Lemmy.
The communities aren’t right for anyone who isn’t seeking something exactly like Lemmy or leftie-Reddit-lite. I don’t even really like it here all that much anymore. Not the content; the interactions… across all my accounts.. even joining “nicer” spaces is not a particularly nice or pleasant experience, plus the more interested is a woman, and Lemmy is a horrible sausagefest echo chamber not at all suited to a normal average woman person who isn’t techie. I’m techie, so I’m used to the vibe, but for your average cis-woman, Lemmy is a very very bad fit.
Bring on the downvotes if you like (the echo-chamber anti-voice sentiment is part of why people shouldn’t be recommended this platform, after all) but these are legit concerns for people who may want to join, and those of us already here can and do steer people elsewhere as a result.
Far be it from me to point out this is exactly how reddit started.
The foundational promise of lemmy and the fediverse writ large is freedom from proprietary software and closed-protocols; the kind of people who are going to be interested in seeking out those types of alternatives are going to gravitate toward techy men.
It takes time for new social media sites to fan outward from their initial adopters, that's just how it goes.
Fair points, to be honest. We can all do better.
Same honestly. I never discussed politics on Reddit, but it's all the content that's here. Partly why I don't recommend it to anyone i know who uses Reddit. Most content just isn't normie-friendly here.
It’s so depressing and aggressive, honestly. I can’t do that to my friends who don’t do that already.
Have you been on Reddit lately? It's insanely depressing and aggressive, too. Even more so in my opinion. I used to be reddit addicted but it's so bot infested, mean-spirited, and kind of vapid and shallow that I get bored after the first page or two. Lemmy still has a long way to go but I've been having more fun and interesting conversations on here.
This is why I'm looking forward to Sublinks launching.
Piefed is more promosing. Sublinks has been on hold for a while now
No they're not, go back to school & relearn what FediVerse is
It's almost certainly because of the tankie factory that is .ml and the fact that it's admins are all hard core tankies (including the main dev! And ofc the whole infamous Nutomic transphobe incident)
Coupled with the fact that a few of the biggest communities are on .ml does not bode well.
That's why I keep calling for a general boycott against posting content or comments on .ml communities.
.ml doesn't want growth, they want a tankie echo chamber, if anybody wants to actually see Lemmy grow at a *healthy* pace it starts with shuning the hostile tankies and their instances.
sorry, but what does tankie mean?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tankie
oh i thought tankie means different here
I think that’s a well done description.
Generally, those who praise *authoritarian* regimes who mask, or attempt to, themselves in the cloak of communism/socialism e.g. China or Russia and are SUPER anti-West (Parroting views of the China Russian regime)
Which comes with a whole host of shit takes, like Russia being justified in their invasion or even denying Tiennamen Square and definitely denying the China Uyghur genocide
Basically, they've gone so far left they've circled back into Right-wing authoritarianism
Same, no idea... Tank wearing people? Lol
https://lemmyverse.net/communities?order=active_month
!linux@programming.dev is a good alternative to !linux@lemmy.ml
Still many top tech communities (in their niche) are on ML. Open source, Linux, Privacy, Raspberry Pi, Firefox come to mind.
Several hexbear communities are also in the top 50.
I mentioned l !linux@programming.dev already
The alternatives are there, most of the people just don't seem to care enough to leave the .ml ones
Are they? I see 2.6k monthly active users for !chapotraphouse@hexbear.net, which is definitely lower than top 50, seems more like 80 or 90, or even past 100 (currently on my phone, can't really count accurately, and Lemmyverse doesn't have row numbers)
I do use all the ML alternatives, but engagement is notably lower. I almost wish LW would just bite the bullet and defederate from ML.
Yeah, maybe more like top 100 for hexbear. I am on mobile too.
Yes, I guess for tech people the political stances are irrelevant, they just want the most active communities
Having access to the devs via !lemmy@lemmy.ml and !lemmy_support@lemmy.ml is probably why
I get the feeling that even if you got what you wanted, you would still complain about .ml
Right now, you could block .ml personally. Have you blocked .ml?
I really don't understand why they won't, they did it with lemmygrad and hexbear but with .ml they wanna take this kid glove approach. The best theory I got is they don't want to because of the more active communities on there ig
Everyone should defederate from that toxic shithole. It serves no purpose that isn’t duplicated elsewhere only without the heavy-handed admin/mod team.
Well I was going by subscriber count, but good to know that it's not as bleak going by (probably more accurate metric to go by) MAUs, but still memes@lemmy.ml is #10 in the top 10
For memes either !memes@lemmy.world or !memes@sopuli.xyz is a good alternative to memes@lemmy.ml
Isn't number 10 !politics@lemmy.world ?
Also, by the active numbers metrics, those other memes communities definitely took over the ml one
Oh it is, ig I miscounted lol
I've said it before, but I joined this instance when Reddit closed the api and the only time I see "tankie" stuff is when someone mentions how rampant it is on this instance, but not on the instance itself. I guess I subscribe to non-tankie content (all across the fediverse and not only this instance).
!de_ml@lemmy.blahaj.zone
Make your own instance and defederate .ml or any of the other instances you hate. Go nuts! Show us how it's done.
I mean......I joined that boycott months ago, and I don't think I've ever seen you before this moment.
Bro. I just posted a meme about it 3 days ago
And I post from time to time about it, enough that some of the more prominent .ml users have started to take notice lmao
I've also been consistently for weeks now cross-posting a ton of fresh (non-tankie anyways) content to the relevant non-.ml communities, it's like the bulk of my posts rn lol
That's nice, thanks for your posts
I wrote this before
I spotted Dessalines posted literal propaganda on some community I joined
gotta be honest that does not sit well with me
Lemmy.world has literal propaganda, too.
They posted a Radio Free Asia article and banned anyone who pointed out it's a government run CIA propaganda op. Even redditors know that's propaganda lol.
It's everywhere, you can't avoid it, you just have to learn to be discerning, media critical, and look into sources.
Switch to Piefed or Mbin?
Yep. And note how the other mods/admins are almost always found commenting alongside them.
Nutomic and Dessalines may be tankies, but they're our tankies
Not wrong lol. I dislike their behavior but still contribute code to lemmy.
Same, I am very opposed to their views, but they make this platform, so I respect them as FOSS developers
And the day that something bad in general about the code can be said? That’s when developers fork. It means something different to us.
Good way to phrase it ha ha
They may be your tankis, but they sure arent our tankies.
They can fuck right off
They are literally developing the platform we are on. Sure, I don't agree with their opinion at all, but it doesn't mean I can't respect their work.
That's because you choose to. You could easily move to mbin, for example. This post made me realize I had been holding back on it without a good reason.
Doing a pretty shit job at it.
I used to use reddit. Those devs made the same mistake, and I dont respect either.
Can you elaborate on what you mean?
Reddit was literally co-founded by Aaron Swartz (RIP): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aaron_Swartz
Not listening to to community. We are the content creators on reddit. Reddit should have done as we asked. They threw us under the bus.
Lemmy devs dont listen to their community. Instance admins point out serious legal issues regarding moderation, and they say they don't fix those bugs because user privacy doesn't matter.
Then develop it yourself.
Why don't you first?
As soon as Sublinks is live I will.
Lemmy is making the same mistake as Reddit, and they'll be an exodus when we have an alternative
https://piefed.social/ is more promising, and almost there except mobile apps. Feel free to try it out.
😂💯
It’s just a random person that registered a domain. Be the change you want to see and make your own?
I mean, personally I don't disagree with that *random person* 😂
ty for this post. Looks like a well-trod ground for most people here, but for newcomers like me the whole conversation was really enlightening and TIL.
to anyone looking for somewhere other than Lemmy I'd like to suggest mbin. I'll admit it's not perfect (especially on mobile, interstellar is decent but it's the only app and has some bugs) but it handles reddit-style content pretty much the same as Lemmy except for the lack of read-marking on posts. as a bonus, it handles microblogs so you can see those without an account on mastodon or something similar.
I ran a kbin instance, which kbin forked, and man it was so resource heavy compared to lemmy. Quite expensive to run at scale. Has mbin fork helped with that?
I'm not sure about self-hosting (not feasible for me right now) but as a user it's not bad. I can say I haven't seen anyone complaining about it yet.
What bugs/issues does Interstellar have that you would like to see fixed? I'm Interstellar's developer btw. I tried to get the majority of the know bugs fixed in the last big update. If there's anything specific you're running into, I can try to focus on that.
the main one I'm still having repeatably right now is that sometimes when I go to post something, especially a comment, the button does not seem to work, so I press it again thinking I missed and it gets posted twice. I also sometimes have an issue where up/downvoting makes a thing pop up saying "null check operator used on null value". it also happened when trying to unfollow a community from an instance I had recently blocked.
I'm on the latest version. I've only seen the null check thing on stuff from other platforms but as mbin is fairly small thats just what I use, so I doubt it's related.
I'm a bit confused then; there should be a loading indicator that displays once the button is pressed, which prevents you from tapping it multiple times. It should look like this now:
.
If this isn't too much work, the next time you have the null check error show up, would you be able to comment back here (or dm me) with exactly what you did, including which post/comment it was you were interacting with?
Hmmmm, could it be the totalitarian-fellating developers? 🤔
Lemmy was made by patriotic Americans?
Valid concern imo, Dev's are just dickheads
No, they aren't.
So you take it out on their projects ? Coward
So, I should quit Lemmy now too?
So far I haven't found a better alternative. Lemmy communities are already much smaller than their Reddit counterparts.
Personally, I don't plan to venture into even more remote locations. It defeats the community part of it...
Piefed looks interesting!
It certainly is! The only "bad" part is the lack of a mobile client. And it kinda looks funky on mobile.
The Thunder client is a godsend for Lemmy, I'm so happy with the work that developer has done. I feel like I'm still back on Reddit using Relay in the compact view.
For any of these alternatives to succeed mobile apps have to exist, and I doubt all the devs that popped up to make Lemmy apps want to retool yet again for a different platform.
It's not so much that we expect the developers of Lemmy apps to retool. The hope is that, if we can provide a sensible, well-documented API, then it will appeal to front-end developers looking for a project. Also, if there are any devs of Lemmy mobile apps who are unhappy with Lemmy's API for any reason, then getting involved with PieFed's whilst it's still in development, offers them a chance to shape one to their desires.
Speaking of Thunder though - I've been able to compile it for desktop, and get it working with PieFed's API in the state it's in now. I've no experience with Flutter / Dart or front-end development, so it suggests that - for open source Lemmy apps, at least - it doesn't need to be the original author who ports it, and that the actual details a particular API are only a relatively small part of creating a good mobile app.
Same feeling with Sync for lemmy. Basically the same experience of reddit I've been using for years.
You can access the same communities on kbin. Does that change anything though?
kbin is abandonware: https://hachyderm.io/@maegul/112929613414300764
Found a related post: https://lemmy.world/post/22523493
Then how about mbin?
If I could use a single identity across the whole Fediverse, I would. Unfortunately, that's not a reality yet.
So we're forced to choose instances (i.e. "home servers"). And for me, that means I'd only choose to stick with the largest ones, as they have the highest chances of providing me with a sort of *permanence*.
I don't see any big mbin instances: * https://joinmbin.org/servers * https://mbin.fediverse.observer/list
But mbin?
That answers that.
You’re good, just block Lemmy.ml.
The code is open source. Everyone can read it.
how do you block an entire instance?
Searching for the instance and then tapping on the element gives you the menu that provides the option to block on the third party app Mlem.
I use Voyager, but this helped me find it in the filter settings. Thank you!
Posted a tutorial here for the mobile web version
Not at all, just filter out .ml. Problem fixed!
Sounds simple right? But unfortunately several users seem to have difficulty in blocking .ml and continue to complain about us.
Don't worry yall, I got your backs.
Welcome to a tutorial on how to block .ml on your personal account.
In the top right corner of the top of the page, there are 3 horizontal white bars. Click it.
This will open up a drop down menu. At the bottom of that menu, you will see your username. Click it.
This will open another drop down menu with 3 options. Click "Settings".
At the top of your screen you will see 2 tabs. Click the one that says "Blocks".
Here you will see "Block user" "Block community" and "Block instance". Click the down arrow below "Block instance".
This will open up a search bar. Type "lemmy.ml" and click it after it shows up.
That's it! You've blocked .ml and will never see content from the instance. Now you don't need to make a feud post every day complaining about .ml and other instances you disapprove of. Think of all the time you will save!
But wait, we aren't done yet in this menu. Click the down arrow under "Block user". Now type "UltraGiGaGigantic" Make sure you select my .ml account as the other ones I no longer use. Thanks, appreciate it.
That does not completely block an instance. Users from that instance would still show up in the comments.
Makes sense to me.
But there's mbin which is clearly the SUPERIOR alternative.
I'm a big mbin stan, but it's clearly the inferior software platform right now.
I was mostly joking, I like that there are multiple options amd we can still interact with each other.
Definitely
Having only one mobile app is already a deal breaker for some users
Is that Interstellar, or another one?
I was thinking about Interstellar indeed, is there another one?
I would sort of consider web as the other one, since kbin (and now mbin) were designed to play nice with mobile browsers, I use mbin on my phone via PWA and I'm pretty happy with it, aside from mbin UI issues which I keep kicking around the idea of fixing but have been lazy about it.
I see, I usually use PWA myself, but I've heard quite a few people saying that apps were a deal breaker for them
hm, raddle.me / postmill looks promising though. is it federated at all? i haven't dived into the code enough yet but i'd love it as an alternative.
Seems very quiet: https://raddle.me/new
Well they still promote mbin and piefed, which works "plug and play" with the lemmy network, so it's not like they don't want to have user on the lemmyverse. So it's not that bad, and if it can direct people out of the overcrowded .world and sometimes borderline .ml it's great for the whole network.
That said, I don't think that *but Lemmy devs are pro China* really a good reason to not use lemmy.
Yeah watch out for that sotware
Is there some feature comparison of lemmy vs mbin vs other reddit-like platforms? There was some major reason why I didn't like kbin, but I forgot why.
They keep changing every few weeks, so I guess that's why people haven't summarized the differences.
Do you have any question in particular?
I see. No, I don't think I have any specific questions at this point.
There's also https://piefed.social/ that is promising
Their claims regarding privacy are really not surprising, it's very on-brand for the developer's ideology to eliminate transparency for users in the platform while keeping everything stored and federated in the back end for the ruling elite, which if and when they decide to, become the arbiters of who can and won't see it. They haven't even bothered to provide any form of recourse to contest it, you basically have to go looking for people yourself. At least until mod member lists are made private too.
I fully agree with their decision, Lemmy is transient at best. Actually, decided to check, yep, they did, kudos to them, they really did think it through.
Downvote all you want, still ain't gonna change that jointhefediverse.net decision (based as fuck) 😂
I have no idea what you're even trying to say.
I have no idea why that would be surprising or I should care.
You’re a real treat
I would think so, given I'm actually replying, something the accounts with significant periods of inactivity or with simply no activity at all making upvotes/downvotes don't seem to be doing.